Why did Jesus go into the φάτνη?

[jeidsath]

Luke 2:7: καὶ ἔτεκεν τὸν υἱὸν αὐτῆς τὸν πρωτότοκον, καὶ ἐσπαργάνωσεν αὐτὸν καὶ ἀνέκλινεν αὐτὸν ἐν φάτνῃ, διότι οὐκ ἦν αὐτοῖς τόπος ἐν τῷ καταλύματι.

KJV: And she brought forth her firstborn son, and wrapped him in swaddling clothes, and laid him in a manger; because there was no room for them in the inn.

NIV 1984: and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no room for them in the inn.

NIV 2011: and she gave birth to her firstborn, a son. She wrapped him in cloths and placed him in a manger, because there was no guest room available for them.

Stephen C. Carlson has a 2010 article "The Accommodations of Joseph and Mary in Bethlehem: Κατάλυμα in Luke 2.7", New Testament Studies, 56, pp. 326-342, outlining the case that the κατάλυμα mentioned is a marital chamber attached to a relative's village house. According to Carlson, Francisco Sánchez de las Brozas, ‘El Brocense’, was reported to the Inquisition by his own students for claiming the same in 1584.

I was not very impressed by the historical case made in the article (I would doubt that Luke had ever seen Bethlehem). But I thought it was interesting that Carlson claims that the Greek would mean something like "because they did not have space in their accommodations".

Looking at the Greek, κατάλυμα clearly has a broad range. A glance at the Septuagint makes this clear. It's related to καταλύω II.2 in the LSJ, which seems to mean "lodge" by way of "ungird."

However, I didn't agree with Carlson's interpretation of αὐτοῖς τόπος. He doesn't discuss the other times that this phrase occurs in the Septuagint and elsewhere, only citing "leading Greek grammars" on whether this is a dative of possession or advantage.

I think that Luke would have said "καὶ ἀνέκλινεν αὐτὸν ἐν φάτνῃ διότι οὐκ ἦν τόπος ἐν τῷ καταλύματι" if he were trying to to make Carlson's point. The αὐτοῖς is very strange if Carlson is correct (see also footnote 40 on page 335, making a very similar case, cited as a contrary viewpoint by Carlson). The αὐτοῖς could possibly be meant to refer specifically to Mary and the baby, salvaging Carlson, but that would be strange after ἐν τῷ εἶναι αὐτοὺς ἐκεῖ, referring also to Joseph.

To me it seems that El Brocense's students were correct to inform him to the Spanish Inquisition. There was no room for the family at the inn. Merry Christmas.

[Barry Hofstetter]

Joel, Stephen is a member on B-Greek. Why don't you post your comments (which I think are plausible) there and see if he's willing to interact? Personally, I think Jerome's translation supports the traditional rendering:

et peperit filium suum primogenitum et pannis eum involvit et reclinavit eum in praesepio quia non erat eis locus in diversorio...

[jeidsath]

Really? I had no idea. Although now that I think about the name, I that that I may have interacted with him once in a class. I will have to rework my post a bit for that. It was meant to start a discussion, not an argument.

What got me looking into the subject was a gentleman at church mentioning to me that he had read that "Luke did not mean an inn, because they didn't have inns in those days". After some searching, Carlson's paper seemed to be the best argument for this general point of view. I enjoyed his bookmarking it with the Spanish Inquisition and thought that I'd do the same.

Some tidbits I came across in researching all of this:

Moeris: "καταγώγιον καὶ κατάγεσθαι Ἀττικοί· κατάλυμα καὶ καταλύειν Ἕλληνες"

George Campbell's discussion ("The Works of George Campbell, Volume 4", pg. 318ff):
https://books.google.com/books?id=C14TA ... &q&f=false

J. R. Major's (very impressive) notes on Luke:
https://books.google.com/books?id=5y5OA ... &q&f=false

Similar LXX usages. (All look like "dative of advantage" to me):

LXX Gen 24:23 εἰ ἔστιν παρὰ τῷ πατρί σου τόπος ἡμῖν καταλῦσαι;
LXX Ecclesiasticus 13:22 καὶ οὐκ ἐδόθη αὐτῷ τόπος [EDIT EDIT: I added this in an edit, but I clearly missed it in my cull of the bigger list]
LXX Eze 45:4: καὶ ἔσται αὐτοῖς τόπος εἰς οἴκους ἀφωρισμένους τῷ ἁγιασμῷ αὐτῶν
LXX Dan 2:35 καὶ τόπος οὐχ εὑρέθη αὐτοῖς
ΛΧΧ Reg I 9:22 καὶ ἔθετο αὐτοῖς τόπον ἐν πρώτοις τῶν κεκλημένων ὡσεὶ ἑβδομήκοντα ἀνδρῶν

[Barry Hofstetter]

Really? I had no idea. Although now that I think about the name, I that that I may have interacted with him once in a class. I will have to rework my post a bit for that. It was meant to start a discussion, not an argument.

What got me looking into the subject was a gentleman at church mentioning to me that he had read that "Luke did not mean an inn, because they didn't have inns in those days". After some searching, Carlson's paper seemed to be the best argument for this general point of view. I enjoyed his bookmarking it with the Spanish Inquisition and thought that I'd do the same.

Excellent. Stephen will discuss, and not argue (in the sense I think you mean).

[jeidsath]

I've posted a new version of this over at B-Greek, taking Barry's suggestion: http://www.ibiblio.org/bgreek/forum/vie ... 64&p=33648

[halibot]

It apparently means that there were no accommodations at the inn/guest room.
The context is that they went to Bethlehem for the census, so they were travelers, and an inn or guest room fits this context.

Here is Strong's page on the word:
https://biblehub.com/greek/2646.htm

from kataluó (in the sense of to lodge)

So etymologically, there was no "lodging" there for the Holy Family to stay at.

Thayer's Lexicon has:

an inn, lodging-place: Luke 2:7 (for מָלון, Exodus 4:24); an eating-room, dining-room (A. V. guest-chamber): Mark 14:14; Luke 22:11; in the same sense for לִשְׁכָּה, 1 Samuel 9:22. (Polybius 2, 36, 1 (plural); 32, 19, 2; Diodorus 14, 93, 5; (others; cf. Winer's Grammar, 25, 93 (89)).)

Other Examples:

Mark 14:14 N-NNS
GRK: ἐστὶν τὸ κατάλυμά μου ὅπου
NAS: Where is My guest room in which
KJV: is the guestchamber, where
INT: is the guest room of me where

Luke 22:11 N-NNS
GRK: ἐστὶν τὸ κατάλυμα ὅπου τὸ
NAS: to you, Where is the guest room in which
KJV: is the guestchamber, where
INT: is the guest room where the

At Passover, Jesus was looking for a guest room to stay in.