John 18:1 Possible timing of when Jesus and His disciples had entered the garden

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dbsawyer
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John 18:1 Possible timing of when Jesus and His disciples had entered the garden

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This is my first post to the forum. I am a student of the Bible with no formal Greek (or Hebrew) training, but generally good with languages (fluent in English and Spanish, decent with Japanese, and past basic study years ago in German and French), a master's in TESOL, and years of experience teaching English. My needs are mostly related to trying to better understand the Greek grammar of Biblical texts. I also like to attempt to picture the scene when reading the Scriptures. I am reading John and have a basic underlying understanding the John wrote his gospel last, was familiar with the other gospels, and was deliberately adding important details and perspective that was missing elsewhere rather than repeating previously written parts of the gospel story.
In this case, I am reading in John 18:1 after finishing John 17 (Jesus' last extended prayer recorded before His arrest).
In comparing this text to the synoptic gospels and imagining the scene (Matthew, Mark, and Luke), it seems most likely to me that John 17 was the continuation of Jesus' prayer in Gethsemane, which began in the synoptics with Jesus asking God to take away the cup of suffering but yielding to the Father's plan. Peter (and likely James, who was dead before any of the gospels were written) drifted off to sleep after the first part, but it seems that John remained awake, heard the rest of the prayer, and recorded it in John 17.
However, for this to be true, the last part of John 18:1 would need to be readable as ".. there was a garden, in which Jesus had entered with His disciples" (prior to the prayer of John 17). Thus the whole passage (changed slightly from the ESV version), would read as follows, with my slight change in all capital letters:
>> When Jesus had spoken these words, he went out with his disciples across the brook Kidron, where there was a garden, which he and his disciples HAD entered. >>
Is this a possible reading, or does Greek have a specific past perfect tense that could have been used to convey such a reading, thus making my reading very likely incorrect?

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: John 18:1 Possible timing of when Jesus and His disciples had entered the garden

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

First, let me suggest that you learn the language systematically, and then you can answer such questions for yourself. Attempts to draw conclusions based on isolated facts about a language nearly always miss the mark. To answer your question directly, no. There is a perfect tense (and an even rarer pluperfect), but it's not used here, and doesn't really work that way. Both main verbs are aorist, and simply indicate narrative sequence taking place in the past. The action of entering the garden comes after leaving the upper room.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Cuncta mortalia incerta...

dbsawyer
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Re: John 18:1 Possible timing of when Jesus and His disciples had entered the garden

Post by dbsawyer »

Thank you for your input. I am looking at studying Greek to some degree, but I do not currently have the availability.
In terms of going to the garden taking place after leaving the upper room, of that there wasn't really any question.
Way back in John 13, Jesus and His disciples were still in the upper room when Judas left. But at 18:1 he crosses the brook either to enter the garden or depart from the garden, so somewhere in the monologues between John 14 and John 17, Jesus and the disciples appear to have left the upper room, walked to Gethsemane, and were now either entering or leaving Gethsemane at the beginning of John 18, at which time Jesus was arrested.
The question is about whether the prayer of John 17 could have taken place in the garden (as opposed to any time before entering the garden) based on John 18:1.
>> Ταῦτα εἰπὼν ὁ ᾿Ιησοῦς ἐξῆλθε σὺν τοῖς μαθηταῖς αὐτοῦ πέραν τοῦ χειμάρρου τοῦ Κέδρων, ὅπου ἦν κῆπος, εἰς ὃν εἰσῆλθεν αὐτὸς καὶ οἱ μαθηταὶ αὐτοῦ. >>
It seems from John 18:1 above that Jesus and His disciples crossed the brook and met Judas almost immediately after the words of John 17. This gives the impression that the words were spoken almost immediately upon His arrest, except that John leaves out much of the dialogue and action that is already available from the other gospels. Is it essential, In the above Greek version of the verse, that the garden had to be first entered after what Jesus said previously (John 17)? If it is also possible, based on the wording, verb tense (εἰσῆλθεν), etc. that he had entered (εἰσῆλθεν) the garden after leaving the upper room, prayed in the garden, and then crossed the brook now (ἐξῆλθε πέραν) as He was leaving the garden and there encountered Judas? If so, John 17 was probably a continuation of Jesus' Gethsemane prayer to the Father that is covered in the synoptics.
The other reading (that Jesus must have entered the garden and been arrested after crossing the brook at the beginning of John 18:1), based on the synoptics, would be that Jesus prayed John 17 some time before entering the garden (either in the upper room or on the way) and that John simply left out everything Jesus did in the garden prior to Judas' arrival (since it had already been covered).
I'm sorry that I seem to be having so much trouble communicating exactly what I am looking for here. Though I am interested in learning Greek, I don't want to have to master it before I can determine whether my impression here in this passage is completely untenable (and simply move on) or is actually a possible reading of the text. Is this the wrong type of forum for such a question?

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Barry Hofstetter
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Re: John 18:1 Possible timing of when Jesus and His disciples had entered the garden

Post by Barry Hofstetter »

Okay, all of John 17 is pictured as taking place before they left the upper room. Nothing in the Greek supports your contention.
N.E. Barry Hofstetter

Cuncta mortalia incerta...

dbsawyer
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Re: John 18:1 Possible timing of when Jesus and His disciples had entered the garden

Post by dbsawyer »

Thanks for the clarification of the tense, which makes it pretty clear that my earlier impression is definitely wrong of the prayer of John 17 taking place in the garden of Gethsemane after Jesus' prayer for God to take away the cup in the synoptics. This is very helpful and helps me avoid misreading the tense based on my lack of full understanding of the Greek.
As a side point (and completely separate from my question, which has been answered), an emphatic statement that John 17 took place before leaving the upper room also seems off based on on Jesus' directive in John 14:31b. "Get up, let us go from here" (ἐγείρεσθε, ἄγωμεν ἐντεῦθεν.) before the monologue of chapters 15 and 16 and the prayer of 17. (This is the same directive Jesus gave to those sleeping at the end of His prayer in the garden in Mark 14:42 and Matthew 26:46 (ἐγείρεσθε ἄγωμεν·). John's user of the same phrase there (only in those three verses so far as I know) is part of what had made me wonder about the tense in 18:1 in the first place (along with the immediate introduction to Judas' betrayal immediately after Jesus' prayer of John 17 in 18:1-3) by possibly using the phrasing to connect the conversation from John 15-17 with the garden and rather than the upper room.) Therefore, chapters 15-17 appear to take place during the walk along the way from the upper room to the garden, not within the upper room itself nor within the garden, with the prayer over His disciples (John 17) taking place very shortly before they enter the garden and Jesus goes off by Himself in the synoptics.
In any case, thank you very much for the clarification on the available Greek tenses (and choice used by John) in John 18:1, which thus places John 17 before crossing the brook and entering the garden.

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