A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Here you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Latin, and more.
Post Reply
Lvpvs Silvae
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:24 pm

A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by Lvpvs Silvae »

Hi everyone,
i am looking for about 8 neuter nouns of the 3rd conjugation that have a silent stem. So far i've tried to look in the grammar books i'm reading but i couldn't find more than 3, so can anyone post some?
The ones i have already found are:
i. cor
ii. capvt
iii. poema

thanks in advance,
Lvpvs Silvae


Edit: corrected the title :)
Last edited by Lvpvs Silvae on Sun Apr 24, 2016 2:23 pm, edited 1 time in total.

User avatar
swtwentyman
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:28 am

Re: A little help with 3rd conjugation nouns

Post by swtwentyman »

Third declension. ;)

There's "lac/lact-". I assume you mean mute stems by "silent stems". Just out of curiosity, why do you need this?

Lvpvs Silvae
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: A little help with 3rd conjugation nouns

Post by Lvpvs Silvae »

swtwentyman wrote:Third declension. ;)

There's "lac/lact-". I assume you mean mute stems by "silent stems".
Yes, sorry about that :) .

swtwentyman wrote:Just out of curiosity, why do you need this?
To study the Third declension of neuter nouns. I just need more examples to practice but the grammar books that i'm reading don't give more than those 3 that i mentioned combined.
I just wonder, since they are grammar books, shouldn't they give more examples for students to practice with or do they have them somewhere in the last pages of the book(s) and i just missed them?

Anyway, thanks for your help, i now have 4. If someone knows a few more please post them!

User avatar
swtwentyman
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:28 am

Re: A little help with 3rd conjugation nouns

Post by swtwentyman »

You shouldn't really need to use that many words for praticing paradigms -- they're all the same so you can substitute one for another. Just remember that with (all) neuters the nominative, accusative, and vocative are the same and the plural ends in -a. Also third-declension neuters ending in -e, -al, and -ar are i-stem, with the ablative singular in -i and the N/A/V plural in -ia and genitive plural in -ium.

Maybe that's not so straightforward. :) But as far as I know there are no special rules for mute neuter stems. Keep practicing!

Grammar books aren't meant to be exhaustive; they only give one or two examples because the concepts apply to every neuter third-declension noun (except for i-stems, though they should be given in a separate section) and you can swap one in for another.

"Rete/ret-" is another neuter mute stem but, more important, is an i-stem. (EDIT: I guess it's an i-stem rather than a mute stem, but on first glance it could seem to be a mute stem)

(Lewis' Elementary Latin Dictionary says that both "rete" and "mare" have ablative singulars ending in -e, but the paradigms in Wheelock's Latin and on Wiktionary give the expected -i. Lewis and Wheelock's have both been wrong before -- Lewis for mismarking vowel length in "solere" and Wheelock's marking the vowels in "hic" and "hoc" as short -- but given that both Wheelock and Wiktionary say it's -i I'd lean towards the majority. Unless someone here knows more.)

Lvpvs Silvae
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: A little help with 3rd conjugation nouns

Post by Lvpvs Silvae »

At the moment, i'm studying about nouns that belong to the Third declension and i'm learning that there are a few rules among them on how they change their stem in order to form the nominative singular. For example, the noun lac, as you correctly posted, derives from the stem lact- that drops the -t- to form the nominative singular. There are also stems that drop different consonants, where grammar books mention some of them (which i posted them in my first post), and there are also stems that do not make any change at all but grammar books mention none of them! Isn't that a little peculiar for a grammar book to say something and then not even mention a simple name as an example, not only to be better understood by the student but also to prove their point?

User avatar
swtwentyman
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:28 am

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by swtwentyman »

Some nouns that don't change their roots: canis/can-, hostis/host-, etc.; rupes/rup- etc. (most third-declension adjectives are of this type). These are also i-stems but differ a bit from the neuters.

You have to memorize both nominative and genitive, which actually isn't as hard as it sounds. There are several patterns that take care of the great majority of them (and they tend to indicate gender as well).

With experience with these patterns you can often -- but not always -- infer the nominative form from the stem, and vice versa.

Also there are nouns like sudor/sudor- and amor/amor- that appear not to change their stems but the O is short in the nominative and long in the other forms.

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2006
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by seneca2008 »

I am not sure there are eight, but stand ready as ever to be corrected.

This is what Allen and Greenough says:

58. Most mute stems are Masculine or Feminine. Those that are neuter have for the Nominative the simple stem. But,—

[*] a. Lingual Stems (t, d) ending in two consonants drop the final mute: as, cor (stem cord-), lac (stem lact-). So also stems in ăt- from the Greek: as, poēma (stem poēmat-).

[*] b. The stem capit- shows u in the nominative (caput for †capot).

[*] 59. Nouns of this class are declined as follows:—

cor , N., heart caput , N., head poēma , N., poem
STEM cord- STEM capit- STEM poēmat-
SINGULAR
CASE-ENDINGS
NOM. cor caput poēma -----
GEN. cordis capitis poēmatis -is
DAT. cordī capitī poēmatī -ī
ACC. cor caput poēma -----
ABL. corde capite poēmate -e
PLURAL
NOM. corda capita poēmata -a
GEN. ----- capitum poēmatum -um
DAT. cordibus capitibus poēmatibus -ibus
ACC. corda capita poēmata -a
ABL. cordibus capitibus poēmatibus -ibus
[*] 60. The following irregularities require notice:—

[*] a. Greek neuters with nominative singular in -a (as poēma ) frequently end in -īs in the dative and ablative plural, and rarely in -ōrum in the genitive plural; as, poēmatīs (for poēmatibus ), poēmatōrum (for poēmatum ).

[*] b. A number of monosyllabic nouns with mute stems want the genitive plural (like cor ). See § 103. g. 2.
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

Lvpvs Silvae
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by Lvpvs Silvae »

swtwentyman wrote:You have to memorize both nominative and genitive, which actually isn't as hard as it sounds. There are several patterns that take care of the great majority of them (and they tend to indicate gender as well).
i agree with you that your method looks easier and more infalible but the one i'm currently reading looks like it's kind of going deeper into the world of word formation which i find quite interesting :) . But, as i've mentioned before,the fact that the books don't say much about it, doesn't help at all :).

swtwentyman wrote:Also there are nouns like sudor/sudor- and amor/amor- that appear not to change their stems
Nice examples!

swtwentyman wrote:but the O is short in the nominative and long in the other forms.

I believe that's because long o becomes short after the final r or l (except if the word consists of only one syllable).

Lvpvs Silvae
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by Lvpvs Silvae »

seneca2008 wrote:I am not sure there are eight, but stand ready as ever to be corrected.
no,no, i just said i need around 8 of them and that i have already found 3 (which i posted them),because i didn't want to make it difficult for anyone who is willing to help me :)
seneca2008 wrote:This is what Allen and Greenough says:

58. Most mute stems are Masculine or Feminine. Those that are neuter have for the Nominative the simple stem. But,—

[*] a. Lingual Stems (t, d) ending in two consonants drop the final mute: as, cor (stem cord-), lac (stem lact-). So also stems in ăt- from the Greek: as, poēma (stem poēmat-).

[*] b. The stem capit- shows u in the nominative (caput for †capot).

[*] 59. Nouns of this class are declined as follows:—

cor , N., heart caput , N., head poēma , N., poem
STEM cord- STEM capit- STEM poēmat-
SINGULAR
CASE-ENDINGS
NOM. cor caput poēma -----
GEN. cordis capitis poēmatis -is
DAT. cordī capitī poēmatī -ī
ACC. cor caput poēma -----
ABL. corde capite poēmate -e
PLURAL
NOM. corda capita poēmata -a
GEN. ----- capitum poēmatum -um
DAT. cordibus capitibus poēmatibus -ibus
ACC. corda capita poēmata -a
ABL. cordibus capitibus poēmatibus -ibus
[*] 60. The following irregularities require notice:—

[*] a. Greek neuters with nominative singular in -a (as poēma ) frequently end in -īs in the dative and ablative plural, and rarely in -ōrum in the genitive plural; as, poēmatīs (for poēmatibus ), poēmatōrum (for poēmatum ).

[*] b. A number of monosyllabic nouns with mute stems want the genitive plural (like cor ). See § 103. g. 2.
That's exactly what i'm talking about!
But, my problem with this passage is this: where it says "Those that are neuter have for the Nominative the simple stem", he doesn't mention any name of such a noun so that i can use it both as a reference to this rule and as a practice material. He only mentions the exceptions to this rule, which are 3 or 4 nouns, so all i need now is 3 or 4 more nouns that actually follow the rule (and that is what makes a total of 8 nouns :) ).

procrastinator
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 25
Joined: Mon Aug 23, 2010 2:30 pm

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by procrastinator »

A couple more:

epigramma -atis
phantasma -atis

Lvpvs Silvae
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by Lvpvs Silvae »

procrastinator wrote:A couple more:

epigramma -atis
phantasma -atis
These nouns, although they are great examples, are declined, if i'm not mistaken, like the noun poema, meaning they change their stem by dropping the final -t in order to form the nominative singular.
What i'm looking for are those who do not change their stem in order to form their nominative singular, thus their stem and their nominative singular are the same. :)

User avatar
swtwentyman
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 463
Joined: Fri Sep 19, 2014 12:28 am

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by swtwentyman »

I appreciate your curiosity (I share some of it) but you'd probably be better served studying the paradigms rather than obsess over philological minutiae.

(I really don't mean to sound at all harsh.)

User avatar
seneca2008
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 2006
Joined: Wed Sep 09, 2015 1:48 pm
Location: Londinium

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by seneca2008 »

Looking more closely at this I dont think you can infer from A&G 58. "Most mute stems are Masculine or Feminine. Those that are neuter have for the Nominative the simple stem." that there are a class of neuter nouns ending in a mute stem other than those he mentions cor,lac and caput.

I think it all hinges on what you understand the "simple stem" to be. This is explained in 58 a and b. It is the stem of the genitive minus the liquid stem. Caput is a bit more complicated and I cant quite explain it but I dont think its vital unless you want to to take up linguistics.

Gildersleeve and Lodge is clearer on this. C. Mute stems ....55. "Rule of gender. Mute stems, with Nominative in s are feminine (then some exceptions which are masculine). Neuters are only cor, lac and caput."
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

Lvpvs Silvae
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 11
Joined: Tue Feb 09, 2016 4:24 pm

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by Lvpvs Silvae »

seneca2008 wrote:Looking more closely at this I dont think you can infer from A&G 58. "Most mute stems are Masculine or Feminine. Those that are neuter have for the Nominative the simple stem." that there are a class of neuter nouns ending in a mute stem other than those he mentions cor,lac and caput.

I think it all hinges on what you understand the "simple stem" to be. This is explained in 58 a and b. It is the stem of the genitive minus the liquid stem. Caput is a bit more complicated and I cant quite explain it but I dont think its vital unless you want to to take up linguistics.

Gildersleeve and Lodge is clearer on this. C. Mute stems ....55. "Rule of gender. Mute stems, with Nominative in s are feminine (then some exceptions which are masculine). Neuters are only cor, lac and caput."
I see now. It looks like i misunderstood what the book was saying, but then again, the whole 58 paragraph is kinda confusing (at least to me :) ).
For example, if i said to someone: my car uses simple tires, but-
a) when it rains it uses these tires (insert a name here)
b) when it snows it uses these tires (insert a different name here)

Wouldn't it be a logical question if that person then asked me: "So, what is the name of the simple tires that you use, you know, when it doesn't rain or snow?" :D
swtwentyman wrote:I appreciate your curiosity (I share some of it) but you'd probably be better served studying the paradigms rather than obsess over philological minutiae.

(I really don't mean to sound at all harsh.)
I'm sorry if i look a little obsessed over such details but it's only because i really like latin and i want to have a deep understanding of them (as much as i can anyway) and not a superficial one.
So, please folks, bare with me because more questions like this one might come up... :D :D

Wimbledon
Textkit Neophyte
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Jul 27, 2016 6:38 am

Re: A little help with 3rd declension nouns

Post by Wimbledon »

Have you checked Kennedy's Revised Latin Primer - page 19 onwards - or http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... ction%3D10 for hints as to why you can't find more?
Kind regards

Post Reply