Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Here you can discuss all things Latin. Use this board to ask questions about grammar, discuss learning strategies, get help with a difficult passage of Latin, and more.
Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

Magistrate...an official adminstering acts of local government

Magister....one who teaches another some thing

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM QUATTUORDECIM
response related to: bedwere » Tue Sep 20, 2016 9:11 pm

Q) Pisces sunt animalia natatilis
Second, an adjective should agree with the substantive in gender, number, and case. Can you fix natatilis?



A) "Animalia" is third declension, neuter, plural. "Third declension adjectives are declined like i-stem nouns: in the ablative singular all three genders have -i; in the genitive plural all three genders have -ium; in the nominative and accusative plural the neuter has -ia." J F Collins, A Primer of Eccliastical Latin, pp 125
Independent clause: Pisces sunt. Adjectival clause: Animalia natatilia.
Animalia, -ium, adj., n., plural

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by mwh »

animalia is a noun, not an adjective.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

animalis, animalis, animale
#47
adjective
Definitions:
animal, of living creatures, living, live, animate
Mahoney, K. D. (n.d.). English search results for: Animal. Retrieved September 27, 2016, from http://latin-dictionary.net/search/english/animal/2

But if in third declension the neuter "animale", (singular), is an adjective, would not the plural nominative and accusative conform the rule given in Collins?

Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Timothée »

Yes, there is an adjective “animalis”, but it has little to do with your sentence “Pisces sunt animalia”. You have to make difference between animal (first attested only apud Ciceronem Varronem Lucretium) and animale.

I don’t like that you refuse to take in the advice given to you multiple times already about using ordinal numbers. Nothing more irritating than having to say the same thing over and over and over again, in vain, as it’s not that difficult an instruction.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

I'm thinking too much. It is embarrassing to miss the obvious, the plainly obvious. :oops:

Independent clause: Pisces sunt. Adjectival clause: Animalia natatilia. hhmmmnyaaa, shaking my head!

Ordinal number: a number defining a things position in a series...such as a series of chapters in a book.

And is Pisces sunt animalia natatilia correct?

truks
Textkit Member
Posts: 156
Joined: Fri Apr 19, 2013 12:01 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by truks »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:Ordinal number: a number defining a things position in a series...such as a series of chapters in a book.
Right... Which means you should have written Capitulum quartum decimum, not Capitulum quattuordecim, just so you're clear.
Matthew Gendzwill wrote:And is Pisces sunt animalia natatilia correct?
Animalia natantia.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM QUARTUM DECIMUM

Participium, -i (n)
sing. plur.
a) masc./fem.
nom. -ns -ntes
acc. -ntem -ntes
gen. -ntis -ntium
dat. -nti -ntibus
abl. -nte/i -ntibus
b) neutr.
nom, -ns -ntia
acc. -ns -ntia
gen. -ntis -ntium
dat. -nti -ntibus
abl. -nte/i -ntibus

c) active participles
[1] -ans, -antis
[2] -ens, -entis
[3] -ens, -entis
[4] -iens, -ientis

Ok. Thank you for your patience. In chapter fourteen he presents the active participle repeatedly and it may have been seen by me to use one as an adjective for animalia. It is good to be rebuked, but I had no intention to refuse. I was confused about the difference between ordinals and cardinals...did not they play in the World Series?

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote: . I was confused about the difference between ordinals and cardinals...did not they play in the World Series?
Cardinal: one, two, three, four, etc.
Ordinal: first, second, third, fourth, etc.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM QUINTUM

Malus discipulus sum quia non audio omnia verba magistri.


Mane pueri in ludum eunt. Pueri qui in ludum eunt discipuli sunt. Qui ludum habet magister est. Marcus magistrum metuit, nam Diodorus magister severus est qui pueros improbos verberat. Intrat magister. Sextus de sella surgit. Ceteri discipuli nondum adsunt. Magister exclamat: O discipulos improbos! Sextus: Num ego improbus sum? Magister: Tu discipulus improbus non es, at ceteri discipuli improbi sunt!
Post Sextum venit Titus, tum Marcus. Marcus ianuam non pulsat, in ludum intrat, nec magistrum salutat. Magister: Discipulus improbus es, Marce! Statim ad me veni! Magister tergum Marci verberat. Tergum est posterior pars corporis. Magister puerum verberare incipit. Marcus ad sellam suam venit neque considit. Magiter: Quid non considis? Marcus: Sedere non possum, quod pars tergi inferior mihi dolet.

Marcus ad ludum venit nec ianuam pulsat. Magister: Cur tu ianuam non pulsat, cum ad ludum venis? Marcus: Ego ianuam non pulso cum ad ludum venio, quod nec Sextus nec Titus id facit. Audite Sexte et Tite: vos ianuam non pulsatis cum ad ludum venistis. Sextus et Titus: Nos ianuam pulsamus cum ad ludum venimus. Magister: Tacite! Aperite libros! Titus: Ego librum non habeo quod Marcus librum meum habet. Marcus: Sed vos meas res habes! Magister discipulos dormire videns exclamat: O pueri! Dormitis! Ego recito, vos non auditis! Marcus: Ego te recitare audio. Non dormio. Titus et Sextus: Nec nos dormimus. Te recitare audimus. Magister: Ego bene recito, at vos male recitatis! Mali discipuli estis! Discipuli: Verum non dicis, magister. Boni discipuli sumus: in ludo nec clamamus nec ridemus, et te audimus!

Quo pueri mane eunt? Ii ad ludum ambulant et illic magister eos verberat.
Quis est Diodorus? Diodorus Graecus, magistro cui Marcus honorem non dat, magister est qui Marcum verberat.
Cur pueri magistrum metuunt? Diodorus magister serverus est, qui verberat virga sua discipulos suos .
Quis discipulum primus ad ludum advenit? Probus puer Sextus intrat prius et pulsat ianuam et magistrum salutat et apud sellam suam stat.
Quid facit Titus antequam ludum intrat? Is pulsat ianuam anteqam in ludum intrat.
Cur Titus librum suum non habet? Macrus librum Titi habet et Tito malum dat.
Quis est discipulus improbissimus? Puer Marcus, sine dubio, ostendet se cum exacerbatione.
Cur magister recitare desinit? Diodorus discpulos dormientes videns, recitare desinit et exclamat eos: O improbi discipuli!
Tunc magister an discipulus es. Discipulus sum.

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:CAPITULUM DECIMUM QUINTUM

Malus discipulus sum quia non audio omnia verba magistri.


Mane pueri in ludum eunt. Pueri qui in ludum eunt discipuli sunt. Qui ludum habet magister est. Marcus magistrum metuit, nam Diodorus magister severus est qui pueros improbos verberat. Intrat magister. Sextus de sella surgit. Ceteri discipuli nondum adsunt. Magister exclamat: O discipulos improbos! Sextus: Num ego improbus sum? Magister: Tu discipulus improbus non es, at ceteri discipuli improbi sunt!
Post Sextum venit Titus, tum Marcus. Marcus ianuam non pulsat, in ludum intrat, nec magistrum salutat. Magister: Discipulus improbus es, Marce! Statim ad me veni! Magister tergum Marci verberat. Tergum est posterior pars corporis. Magister puerum verberare incipit. Marcus ad sellam suam venit neque considit. Magiter: Quid non considis? Marcus: Sedere non possum, quod pars tergi inferior mihi dolet.

Marcus ad ludum venit nec ianuam pulsat. Magister: Cur tu ianuam non pulsat, cum ad ludum venis? Marcus: Ego ianuam non pulso cum ad ludum venio, quod nec Sextus nec Titus id facit. Audite Sexte et Tite: vos ianuam non pulsatis cum ad ludum venistis. Sextus et Titus: Nos ianuam pulsamus cum ad ludum venimus. Magister: Tacite! Aperite libros! Titus: Ego librum non habeo quod Marcus librum meum habet. Marcus: Sed vos meas res habes! Magister discipulos dormire videns exclamat: O pueri! Dormitis! Ego recito, vos non auditis! Marcus: Ego te recitare audio. Non dormio. Titus et Sextus: Nec nos dormimus. Te recitare audimus. Magister: Ego bene recito, at vos male recitatis! Mali discipuli estis! Discipuli: Verum non dicis, magister. Boni discipuli sumus: in ludo nec clamamus nec ridemus, et te audimus!

Quo pueri mane eunt? Ii ad ludum ambulant et illic magister eos verberat.
Quis est Diodorus? Diodorus Graecus, magistro cui Marcus honorem non dat, magister est qui Marcum verberat.
Cur pueri magistrum metuunt? Diodorus magister serverus est, qui verberat virga sua discipulos suos .
Quis discipulum primus ad ludum advenit? Probus puer Sextus intrat prius et pulsat ianuam et magistrum salutat et apud sellam suam stat.
Quid facit Titus antequam ludum intrat? Is pulsat ianuam anteqam in ludum intrat.
Cur Titus librum suum non habet? Macrus librum Titi habet et Tito malum dat.
Quis est discipulus improbissimus? Puer Marcus, sine dubio, ostendet se cum exacerbatione.
Cur magister recitare desinit? Diodorus discpulos dormientes videns, recitare desinit et exclamat eos: O improbi discipuli!
Tunc magister an discipulus es. Discipulus sum.
No need for magistro here:
Diodorus Graecus, cui Marcus honorem non dat, magister est qui Marcum verberat.

You should have a question mark:
Tunc magister an discipulus es?

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM QUINTUM

Q) Magiter: Quid non considis?

A) Magister

Q) Cur tu ianuam non pulsat, cum ad ludum venis?

A) Pulsas

Q) Sed vos meas res habes!

A) Tu

Q) Diodorus Graecus, magistro cui

A) Cui... he, she, it, to whom...magistro is redundant.

Q) Diodorus magister serverus est,

A) severus

Q) Diodorus discpulos dormientes videns,

A) discipulos

Q) Tunc magister an discipulus es.

A) Discipulus es?

Saved the post as a draft after having viewed it determinedly and the next evening viewed it so again. Can't even leave the house without forgetting what it is I need to take with me and I've been trying to change that for a looong time.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

The deponent verb is that which always has the form of the passive verb (except for any participle, e.g. rejoicing, reverencing, embarking, anticipating) and which works as a transitive verb.

The deponent verb is the verb which always has the form of the passive verb (except the participle, e.g. rejoicing, fearing, embarking, expecting) and which in the place of the active verb is put.

"Verbum deponens est verbum quod semper formam verbi passivi habet (praeter participium: laetans, verens, proficiscens, opperiens) atque in loco verbi activi ponitur."


Deponens, -entis

[1] -ari: -atur, -antur
[2] -eri: -etur,-entur
[3] -i: -itur, -untur
[4] -iri: -itur, -iuntur

Medus, setting out from Italy, looked at the rising sun. Medus ex Italia proficiscens solem orientem intuetur. The ship leaves the port; other ships follow it. Navis e portu egreditur; aliae naves eam sequuntur. While Lydia speaks, tears fall from her eyes. Dum Lydia loquitur, lacrimae de oculis eius labuntur. Medus embraces her and tries to console her. Medus eam complectitur et consolari conatur. Lydia follows Medus as he goes up to the stern. Lydia Medum in puppim ascedentem sequitur. While the sailor speaks, Medus looks to the west, where black clouds arise. Dum loquitur nauta, Medus, in occidentem, unde nubes atrae oritur, videt. Sailors, who revere/fear Neptune, expect/anticipate a storm. Nautae, qui Neptunum verentur, tempestatem opperiuntur. Medus and Lydia "embark" from Italy. Medus et Lydia ex Italia proficiscuntur. Lydia follows Medus who goes up to the stern. Lydia Medum in puppim ascendentem sequitur. As the sailor speaks, Medus looks to the West out of which black clouds arise. Dum nauta loquitur, Medus occidentem intuetur, unde nubes atrae oriuntur. At that moment the storm rises. Simul tempestas oritur. The sad/distraught merchant sees his goods cast into the sea; no man/ no one is able to console him. Mercator tristis merces suas in mare labiuntur videt; nemo eum consolari potest. Who, leaving from his friends, is not able to rejoice? Qui ab amicis proficiscitur laetari non potest?

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Medus, setting out from Italy, looked at the rising sun. Medus ex Italia proficiscens solem orientem intuetur. The ship leaves the port; other ships follow it. Navis e portu egreditur; aliae naves eam sequuntur. While Lydia speaks, tears fall from her eyes. Dum Lydia loquitur, lacrimae de oculis eius labuntur. Medus embraces her and tries to console her. Medus eam complectitur et consolari conatur. Lydia follows Medus as he goes up to the stern. Lydia Medum in puppim ascedentem sequitur. While the sailor speaks, Medus looks to the west, where black clouds arise. Dum loquitur nauta, Medus, in occidentem, unde nubes atrae oritur, videt. Sailors, who revere/fear Neptune, expect/anticipate a storm. Nautae, qui Neptunum verentur, tempestatem opperiuntur. Medus and Lydia "embark" from Italy. Medus et Lydia ex Italia proficiscuntur. Lydia follows Medus who goes up to the stern. Lydia Medum in puppim ascendentem sequitur. As the sailor speaks, Medus looks to the West out of which black clouds arise. Dum nauta loquitur, Medus occidentem intuetur, unde nubes atrae oriuntur. At that moment the storm rises. Simul tempestas oritur. The sad/distraught merchant sees his goods cast into the sea; no man/ no one is able to console him. Mercator tristis merces suas in mare labiuntur videt; nemo eum consolari potest. Who, leaving from his friends, is not able to rejoice? Qui ab amicis proficiscitur laetari non potest?

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

Medus, setting out from Italy, looked at the rising sun. He looks...
Medus, ex Italia proficiscens, solem occidentem, intuetur.

Medus, in occidentem, unde nubes atrae oritur, videt. mangled...
Medus, in occidentem intuetur, unde nubes atrae oriuntur.

The sad/distraught merchant sees his goods cast into the sea. Does not correspond to "labi".
Mercator tristis merces suas in mare labiuntur videt. "Merces" accusative.
In mare merces labentes is videt.

Qui ab amicis proficiscitur laetari non potest? Who from friends he leaves.... Indicative 3rd singular is wrong.
Qui ab amicis proficiscens... The active participle/adjective working in the present moment to identify he who is unable to rejoice. Lydia laetari non potest.

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by mwh »

quis not qui.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

Thank you.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Brudisium est oppidum maritimum quod magnum portum habet.

In portus maritimi sita sunt oppida ad mare quae sita sunt ad ostia flumenum.

Portus est locus quo naves ad terram adire possunt.

Cum nullus ventus flat, mare tranquillum est.

Tempestas est magnus ventus qui mare turbat et altos fluctus facit.

Gubernator est qui in puppim sedet, qui caelum spectat, navem sole oriente per diem et septentrione per noctem dirigit.

Unde sol oritur, ea pars caeli dicitur oriens. Quando descendit sol, eo tempore caeli, caelum occidens appellatur. Septentriones videtur hominibus qui nave vehuntur, dum lux solis non claret et luce solis luna refulgetur.

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Brudisium est oppidum maritimum quod magnum portum habet.

In portus maritimi sita sunt oppida ad mare quae sita sunt ad ostia flumenum.

Portus est locus quo naves ad terram adire possunt.

Cum nullus ventus flat, mare tranquillum est.

Tempestas est magnus ventus qui mare turbat et altos fluctus facit.

Gubernator est qui in puppim sedet, qui caelum spectat, navem sole oriente per diem et septentrione per noctem dirigit.

Unde sol oritur, ea pars caeli dicitur oriens. Quando descendit sol, eo tempore caeli, caelum occidens appellatur. Septentriones videtur hominibus qui nave vehuntur, dum lux solis non claret et luce solis luna refulgetur.
Notes:

eo tempore In that time of the sky? What do you mean?
videtur hominibus maybe videtur ab hominibus? videtur hominibus would mean "it seems to people"

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

bedwere wrote:
Matthew Gendzwill wrote:CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Brudisium est oppidum maritimum quod magnum portum habet.

In portus maritimi sita sunt oppida ad mare quae sita sunt ad ostia flumenum.

Portus est locus quo naves ad terram adire possunt.

Cum nullus ventus flat, mare tranquillum est.

Tempestas est magnus ventus qui mare turbat et altos fluctus facit.

Gubernator est qui in puppim sedet, qui caelum spectat, navem sole oriente per diem et septentrione per noctem dirigit.

Unde sol oritur, ea pars caeli dicitur oriens. Quando descendit sol, eo tempore caeli, caelum occidens appellatur. Septentriones videtur hominibus qui nave vehuntur, dum lux solis non claret et luce solis luna refulgetur.
Notes:

eo tempore In that time of the sky? What do you mean?
videtur hominibus maybe videtur ab hominibus? videtur hominibus would mean "it seems to people"

Brudisium est oppidum maritimum quod magnum portum habet.
Brundisium

In portus maritimi sita sunt oppida ad mare quae sita sunt ad ostia flumenum.
In maritime ports are situated towns next to the sea which towns are situated next to openings of rivers.
I used portus with plural, masculine adj because portus is plural, nom., masc. fourth declension. This is a mistake because "portus maritmi" is not the subject of the sentence, "oppida" is the subject. Following the preposition sould be the ablative showing where maritime ports are situated, "portibus maritimis".

(Flumen, is) noun 3rd decl. neuter. I wanted to say "...situated at the mouths of rivers" and I used the genitive plural "flumenum" because I think the plural endings for a third declension noun, neuter, are a, um, ibus, a, ibus.

Quando descendit sol, eo tempore caeli, caelum occidens appellatur.
eo tempore In that time of the sky? What do you mean?

One viewing the setting sun is having duration corresponding to his view of the sky.

Septentriones videtur hominibus qui nave vehuntur...

I had used "ab" and then removed it :? Septentriones ab hominibus.... "...in time, indicating duration or distance from..." The preposition works to give distance between the constellation and men: Septentriones ab hominibus videtur.... Without the preposition "qui" cannot be attributed either to septentriones or hominibus.

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:
Brudisium est oppidum maritimum quod magnum portum habet.
Brundisium

In portus maritimi sita sunt oppida ad mare quae sita sunt ad ostia flumenum.
In maritime ports are situated towns next to the sea which towns are situated next to openings of rivers.
I used portus with plural, masculine adj because portus is plural, nom., masc. fourth declension. This is a mistake because "portus maritmi" is not the subject of the sentence, "oppida" is the subject. Following the preposition sould be the ablative showing where maritime ports are situated, "portibus maritimis".

(Flumen, is) noun 3rd decl. neuter. I wanted to say "...situated at the mouths of rivers" and I used the genitive plural "flumenum" because I think the plural endings for a third declension noun, neuter, are a, um, ibus, a, ibus.

Quando descendit sol, eo tempore caeli, caelum occidens appellatur.
eo tempore In that time of the sky? What do you mean?

One viewing the setting sun is having duration corresponding to his view of the sky.

Septentriones videtur hominibus qui nave vehuntur...

I had used "ab" and then removed it :? Septentriones ab hominibus.... "...in time, indicating duration or distance from..." The preposition works to give distance between the constellation and men: Septentriones ab hominibus videtur.... Without the preposition "qui" cannot be attributed either to septentriones or hominibus.
flumenum is wrong. Check the stem.
Sorry, eo tempore caeli makes sense neither in Latin nor in English. Try to rephrase and keep it simple.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

flumenum is wrong. Check the stem.
Sorry, eo tempore caeli makes sense neither in Latin nor in English. Try to rephrase and keep it simple.

flūm -en , -ĭnis fluminum
Wow. I went to perseus.tufts.edu when I was finding "flumen". Looked at it through the text presented for usages. I'm trying to keep it simple but I get distracted.
Occidens est pars caeli quo sol occidit.

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:flumenum is wrong. Check the stem.
Sorry, eo tempore caeli makes sense neither in Latin nor in English. Try to rephrase and keep it simple.

flūm -en , -ĭnis fluminum
Wow. I went to perseus.tufts.edu when I was finding "flumen". Looked at it through the text presented for usages. I'm trying to keep it simple but I get distracted.
Occidens est pars caeli quo sol occidit.
Much better. Only one to go. Check the difference between ubi, quo, unde and correct your sentence accordingly.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM
Occidens est pars caeli quo sol occidit.

Ubi, adv
Of time, when, whenever, as soon as:
Ubi occidit sol, tempus sole occidente est.

Quo, adv
To or in which place, whither, where:
Quo it sol? In occasum descendit.


Undĕ, adv
Apart from relations of place, and referring to persons or things, from which something proceeds:
Unde est oriens solis? Ab oriente sol oritur.


Perseus Digital Library. (n.d.). Retrieved October 09, 2016, from http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Occidens est pars caeli quo sol occidit.
Occidens est pars caeli ubi sol occidit.
Ubi occidit sol, tempus sole occidente est.
This makes little or no sense. I probably understand what you mean, but don't try to mix space and time like Einstein :wink:

Although it's possible to use ubi as adverb of time, the literal use of ubi is as adverb of space. So

ubi, quo, unde

respectively correspond to

where, whither, whence

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Quae naves Romam adire possunt. Quae non magnae sunt in Tiberim ire possunt Romam.

Quid est ostium fluminis? Id locus est situs ad mare et portus est ubi naves intrant flumen.

Num Tiberis in mare Superum influit? Flumen Tiberis progreditur ad mare inferum cui nomen Tuscum est.

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Quae naves Romam adire possunt. Quae non magnae sunt in Tiberim ire possunt Romam.

Quid est ostium fluminis? Id locus est situs ad mare et portus est ubi naves intrant flumen.

Num Tiberis in mare Superum influit? Flumen Tiberis progreditur ad mare inferum cui nomen Tuscum est.
Punctuation.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Punctuation
Quae naves Romam adire possunt
Sine puncto scripta erat sententia.
Quae naves Romam adire possunt?

Quando naves e portu egrediuntur? Dum ventus secundus est, naves egredientes .
Ubi sedet gubernator et quid agit? In puppi navis sedens gubernat eam.
Quae sunt quattor (is numerus cardinalis est) partes caeli? Illa pars caeli unde sol oritur Oriens nominatur. Sol oriens ab oriente, is progreditur usque ad Meridiem. Descendit e loco caeli alte, in Occidentem sol est. Nox accidit et occultus est sol, Septentriones apparent.

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Punctuation
Quae naves Romam adire possunt
Sine puncto scripta erat sententia.
Quae naves Romam adire possunt?

Quando naves e portu egrediuntur? Dum ventus secundus est, naves egredientes .
Ubi sedet gubernator et quid agit? In puppi navis sedens gubernat eam.
Quae sunt quattor (is numerus cardinalis est) partes caeli? Illa pars caeli unde sol oritur Oriens nominatur. Sol oriens ab oriente, is progreditur usque ad Meridiem. Descendit ab loco caeli alte, in occidentem sol est. Nox accidit et occultus est sol, Septentriones apparent.
Also, if you choose to capitalize the cardinal points, you should be consistent.

Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Timothée »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:Sol oriens ab oriente, is progreditur usque ad Meridiem.
Possibly ex Oriente (I’m thinking of ex Oriente lux), but this is a minor matter, to be sure. Also, as Bedwere pointed out, a different structure would be better, e.g. Sol ex Oriente oriens usque ad meridiem (not a cardinal point here!) progreditur. There’s some tautophony but that may not be helped (maybe a figura etymologica could be an excuse...). Logically Sol ex Oriente usque ad meridiem oritur might do (the sun does continue its journey even after noon, doesn’t it?) but that’s not what you wanted to write. I’m just thinking aloud.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

Timothée wrote:
Matthew Gendzwill wrote:Sol oriens ab oriente, is progreditur usque ad Meridiem.
Possibly ex Oriente (I’m thinking of ex Oriente lux), but this is a minor matter, to be sure. Also, as Bedwere pointed out, a different structure would be better, e.g. Sol ex Oriente oriens usque ad meridiem (not a cardinal point here!) progreditur. There’s some tautophony but that may not be helped (maybe a figura etymologica could be an excuse...). Logically Sol ex Oriente usque ad meridiem oritur might do (the sun does continue its journey even after noon, doesn’t it?) but that’s not what you wanted to write. I’m just thinking aloud.

Thank you so much, Timothee. I will attempt to respond to you in the morning. For now, cheers and a glass of good Irish whiskey and prayers from the night office.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

1) Quando naves e portu egrediuntur? Dum ventus secundus est, naves egredientes.
The clashing of gongs... "When the wind has followed, leaving ships." doesn't answer the question and the use of "naves egredientes" causes the adverbial clause to be dissonant, isolated, nonsensical. When do ships leave the port? The subject and tense of the deponent transitive verb inflected as "ntur" would remain in the response. The active participle might be used like this: "...naves egredientes homines et merces vehunt" or, just as Bedwere continues to admonish me to do, to keep it simple: "...naves egrediuntur."

2) Quae sunt quattor (is numerus cardinalis est) partes caeli? Illa pars caeli unde sol oritur Oriens nominatur.
Quattuor

3) Descendit ab loco caeli alte, in occidentem sol est.
The preposition "in". I am not sure when to use it and having looked at those conditions in which "in" would take the ablative or accusative I put it with the accusative here because I thought of the West as an object toward which the sun is going, moving, traveling....but the West is not a physical object. It is an orientation.
Descendit e caeli, in Occidente sol est.

4) Nox accidit et occultus est sol Septentriones apparent.
Nox accidit et occultus est, sol Septentriones apparent.

5) "Also, if you choose to capitalize the cardinal points, you should be consistent."
Proper English nouns not inflected, for years having been referred to and used by me, having thus developed a visual habit with respect to them, I tend to not comprehend the necessity that proper Latin nouns in any case be written in the upper case.

6) "Also, as Bedwere pointed out, a different structure would be better, e.g. Sol ex Oriente oriens usque ad meridiem (not a cardinal point here!) progreditur."
Just got home from working a 16 hour shift. Nursing shortage and all that, you know... I am going to respond to Timothee within 36 hours, I hope.

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Matthew Gendzwill wrote:CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM


3)
Descendit e caeli, in Occidente sol est.

4)
Nox accidit et occultus est, sol Septentriones apparent.
3) What case after e/ex?

4) Instead of comma, there should be a period after sol:
Nox accidit et occultus est sol. Septentriones apparent.
Maybe better:
Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol, septentriones apparent.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

3) What case after e/ex? :
Descendit e caeli, in Occidente sol est.

Auuch, Man!! Exasperated!! The ablative!! :oops:

4)Nox accidit et occultus est, sol Septentriones apparent.
Instead of comma, there should be a period after sol:
Nox accidit et occultus est sol. Septentriones apparent.

A comma is not used to separate independent clauses.
The night falls and the sun is hidden. The seven stars appear.

Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol, septentriones apparent.
Yes, that is what I wanted to say. Cassel's provides that "cum" is a preposition of various relations, to complete the sense of a verb... I wanted to convey time when a constellation appeared as when the night fell and the sun was hidden. The preposition signifies the first independent clause to complete the sense of the verb in the second independent clause.

Is there a kind of description for the way of which a sentence such as "Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol, septentriones apparent." has cadence?

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Auuch, Man!! Exasperated!! The ablative!! :oops:
Then can you correct the error?
Is there a kind of description for the way of which a sentence such as "Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol, septentriones apparent." has cadence?
I don't understand the question. Maybe you don't mean cadence but something else.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

bedwere wrote:
Auuch, Man!! Exasperated!! The ablative!! :oops:
Then can you correct the error?
Descendit e caelo, in Occidente sol est.
Is there a kind of description for the way of which a sentence such as "Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol, septentriones apparent." has cadence?
I don't understand the question. Maybe you don't mean cadence but something else.
Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol, septentriones apparent.
Well...with 'Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol...' eleven syllables are in succession with emphasis on the first, third, and eighth, the clause becoming with balance of consonant and vowel and it seem to me this balance and rhythm contribute to the image of the seven stars being appeared.
But any way...my apologies. I am convinced about your advice. I've gotten more traction in learning Latin in the last couple of months than in all the time I've tried to do this. I'm gonna do it yer way.
Last edited by Matthew Gendzwill on Thu Oct 13, 2016 5:06 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Timothée
Textkit Enthusiast
Posts: 564
Joined: Fri Oct 09, 2015 4:34 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Timothée »

bedwere wrote:
Is there a kind of description for the way of which a sentence such as "Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol, septentriones apparent." has cadence?
I don't understand the question. Maybe you don't mean cadence but something else.
It’s dangerous to speak for others, but he may have thought something about main clause following the subordinate clause — either as to grammar or as to rhetorical figure.

I’m not sure if the English term apodosis covers this phenomenon, too, or whether in English terminology that is reserved only for clause following a protasis starting with if.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

Timothée wrote:
bedwere wrote:
Is there a kind of description for the way of which a sentence such as "Cum nox accidit et occultus est sol, septentriones apparent." has cadence?
I don't understand the question. Maybe you don't mean cadence but something else.
It’s dangerous to speak for others, but he may have thought something about main clause following the subordinate clause — either as to grammar or as to rhetorical figure.

I’m not sure if the English term apodosis covers this phenomenon, too, or whether in English terminology that is reserved only for clause following a protasis starting with if.

Yes, I wanted to note the following of the main clause, too. But my attempt arrange that observation with my thoughts about rythm and balance of vowel and consonant: I needed to stop that attempt in order to phrase specifically with regard to these.

User avatar
bedwere
Global Moderator
Posts: 5101
Joined: Fri Mar 07, 2008 10:23 pm
Location: Didacopoli in California
Contact:

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by bedwere »

Aristotle says that speech has rhythm (numerus, ῥυθμός), but not meter (metrum, μέτρον) like poetry. Everything has been classified. You can read the prosody section of your grammar, when you are more advanced.

Matthew Gendzwill
Textkit Member
Posts: 134
Joined: Mon Jul 25, 2016 5:42 pm

Re: Hans Ordberg, Lingua Latina per se illustrata

Post by Matthew Gendzwill »

CAPITULUM DECIMUM SEXTUM

Quas res Medus et Lydia secum ferunt?
Illi omnes res suas ferunt: pauca vestimenta, paulum cibi nec multum pecuniae.
...small amount of food nor large amount of money... acc. with gen.


Quo Medus cum amica Lydia sua ire vult?
Redire cum ea in Graecam vult.

Cur tristis est Lydia?
Lydia quoque Graeca est et relinquit amicas Romanas suas, quibus illic amicitiam habuit. Altera patria es mihi inquit Lydia, ea non sine lacrimis Roma relinquit.

Quem deum invocant nautae?
Neptunus deus est a nautae invocantur tempore tempestatis, dum nubes atrae fulgurque oriuntur.

Cur merces in mare iaciuntur?
In periculo navis mergentis, iussit merces iaci et nautae in mare iaciunt illas.
In danger of the ship's sinking,...

Num navis eorum mergitur?
Medus, os suum aquae plenus est, conatur invocare Neptunum sed non obtinere auxilium posse. Lydia, perterritus est, invocat Dominun Christum ut mare tranquillum sit, ecce, id est, navis a mari non mergitur.

Post Reply