Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

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tryalchemy
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Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by tryalchemy »

Hi everyone, I am from the states. I have started to learn Latin because I would love to be able to at least roughly understand ancient occult books written in Latin, since all the good manuscripts have not been translated so knowing Latin would be greatly helpful. I practice ceremonial magic and other esoteric arts and i'm currently working with the mansions of the moon for something personal (and kind of controversial). I have an upcoming ritual where I plan to make a talisman and I would like to attempt for the first time to actually engrave it in latin instead of english.

I am not expecting anyone to translate a bunch of things for me because I actually want to learn how to do it so if I could get feedback or correction on what I have come up with, and whether I chose the correct word for my intended meaning, it would mean a lot to me.



So i'm engraving the talisman to cause the destruction and separation of a relationship between two people. I know, it sounds bad. It's a complicated story. I had to obviously tell you the context though, so when you see the words I chose you can tell me if they are even in the correct context.

I didn't google translate the words, I actually downloaded some etymological dictionaries for Latin to english and went through every single meaning for each word I wanted to use until I found the word that best represented what I was trying to say. From there, I conjugated the verbs using the present active imperative 2nd person singular, I think this is correct because when I engrave the talisman I would be writing in the form of a petition or prayer to a planet and whatnot. So it would be kind of like saying "mars, destroy and terminate their relationship permanently".

For example, I want to use the word Deleo for the act of destruction and ruin. After conjugating it the correct form would be dele, is this correct? With accent line over both the e's.

Here are the other ones I came up with (I accented them in the proper place but don't know how to do that on here):
Disjungo (verb) which I conjugated to disjunge which should mean to separate, divide, part, disjoin.
Perimo (verb) would conjugate to perime, and should mean to take away entirely, to cut off, extinguish, annihalate.
Affectus (noun) I would have to use the plural genative neutral form of it...I think....because it's THEIR love, so I ended up with affectum. Or would eorum affectus be more logical?
Creo (verb) which I conjugate to Crea,,,meaning to bring, produce, make, create, cause.
Pugnacitatis meaning the desire to fight and hostility.
And then the most confusing for me was the actual word "relationship" because in the dictionaries it seems like conjunctio (noun) would be most accurate because it means connection, union, relationship in general. But then when I tried searching on the internet everywhere else was translating "relationship" as Necessitudo and eorum necessitudo for "their relationship", So did I choose the wrong word or the wrong context for using conjunctio?


Thank you in advance for any tips and help you can give me! I apologize for such stupid questions, I tried very hard to do this on my own but I know I cannot learn unless I ask people who know more and are familiar with the language.

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by Constantinus Philo »

I know only that there is a big difference between classical Latin of Cicero and that of medieval grimoirs.... therefore u have to decide first which Latin to use.... As for me most of your choices sound like some unnatural Latin, though you have formed your imperatives correctly. Pugnacitatis is however the genetive case of pugnacitas. Let us know how it has worked. For medieval Latin you should probably consult the multi volumed lexicon of Du Cange, which is itself medieval.
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Callisper
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by Callisper »

tryalchemy wrote: Wed Apr 10, 2019 12:41 am So i'm engraving the talisman to cause the destruction and separation of a relationship between two people. I know, it sounds bad. It's a complicated story. I had to obviously tell you the context though, so when you see the words I chose you can tell me if they are even in the correct context.
I feel like only a morbid desire for our conscious complicity, or curiosity how many will help anyway, could have prompted you to disclose this. Wouldn't it have been easy to just tell us what you wanted translated? You can't go massively wrong with 'context' in the space of 10-20 words.

From my tone you can probably tell why my response is not more philologically helpful.

tryalchemy
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by tryalchemy »

Constantinus Philo~ thanks for the info! I don't mind using either, it's more for the learning experience because I absorb and retain knowledge better when I am using it in my practical applications.

For the unnatural words- is it the words I have chosen, do they not have the same meaning in Latin which makes them awkward to use, or have I just chosen words that nobody ever uses? Like outdated words?

Which version of "relationship" is more correct and accurate to use?

Are there any good modern dictionaries that give examples of sentences using the word? I find I am having the most trouble with context. Every time I search online there are about 14 different words that are supposedly correct...but I know they are not all actually meaning in Latin what I intend to mean in English.

Thanks again!

tryalchemy
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by tryalchemy »

Callisper~ my apologies, I had prematurely assumed everyone here was non judgmental, considering most educated people are quite open minded and do not take personal offense to what others do privately. I am sorry and genuinely apologize for offending you. I respect all religious views and personal beliefs of each individual, along with any societal and/or personal norms or moral codes they might uphold. It is understandable if you do not feel inclined to offer help due to the subject. I respect that and encourage you to never do something that makes you uncomfortable. If I have broken a forum rule by disclosing the details of my occult practices, please let me know. I do not wish to upset others by the clashing of morality, it is not my intention, but if this is something that many here consider offensive, then it would probably be in the best interest of both myself and the forum, for me to look elsewhere for help with Latin.

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Coniunctio is relationship
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Callisper
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by Callisper »

You didn't offend me. It just seemed an odd thing to mention. To take an extreme example, imagine the scientists working on the nuclear bomb were informed by their employers "By the way - and 'I had to obviously tell you the context' - we're going to use the fruits of your research to murder a huge number of Japanese; but I know that you are 'educated' and will not mind what we do with it, right?" and then asked to continue, as their work is fundamentally academic and in the name of science. If you have that intention, and do not expect others to share it, why burden the people you want to help you with it? Surely this just excludes the people who feel strongly one way or another. Your request meanwhile may not actually hurt a relationship, but no-one wants to be complicit in supporting the notion that it would. Had you left it at the level of a 'suspicion' or 'worry,' no academic-minded individual would have hesitated to reply, so it's the clarification that I found strange.

Don't mind me - in so far as you have actual Latin questions to ask, go ahead and ask them! I'm sure you'll find takers.

tryalchemy
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by tryalchemy »

Constantinus Philo~ Ah, thank you! It all makes sense now. I hadn't even thought to use that word. Thank you! So would the correct sentence be: coniunctio cum (name of person). I don't need to put "the" before it or anything? Just "relationship??


Callisper~ I see what you're saying. Lol your example was pretty dramatic though, I couldn't help but laugh at the comparison :lol:

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by Constantinus Philo »

Just give me a complete sentence in English I will try to translate it into Latin
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tryalchemy
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by tryalchemy »

That's awesome, thank you! Especially because tonight is the night I have to make the talisman!

"Permanently destroy and terminate (guy's) relationship with his girlfriend."
"Cut all emotional ties between them."
"Bring jealousy, discord, and irreconcilable differences to their union so their love becomes enmity and their fire turns to ice. "

The sentence I ended up with (which probably isn't even understandable in latin) was "solve mortifica et putreface coniunctio cum (guy). And then I figured I would just write the words "destrue" and "perime" with the art I engraved. I tried really hard!


Ah, thank you again. I really want to learn how to write full sentences though. That one sentence took me a whole week to figure out lol.

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by Constantinus Philo »

O Cupido tolle coniunctionem eius cum sua amica in aeternum
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tryalchemy
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Re: Grammar and phrases for 17th century talisman

Post by tryalchemy »

thank you!

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