Augustine, de civitas dei, book xi, ch.ii

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hlawson38
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Augustine, de civitas dei, book xi, ch.ii

Post by hlawson38 »

Context: In the first ten books Augustine refuted the polytheistic writers and the neoPlatonists. In book 11, he begins his own account of the origin and course of the division of the world between the City of God and the city of man. In this sentence he seems to set forth a means by which humans can attain knowledge of God.
[II] Magnum est et admodum rarum uniuersam creaturam corpoream et incorpoream consideratam compertamque mutabilem intentione mentis excedere atque ad incommutabilem Dei substantiam peruenire et illic discere ex ipso, quod cunctam naturam, quae non est quod ipse, non fecit nisi ipse.
Translation: It is a great and exceeding rare thing for a man to review the whole created world, material and immaterial, and after discovering it to be changeable, to go beyond it by a concentrated effort of the mind to reach the unchangeable substance of God and from that very effort to learn that nobody made that whole nature, the nature that is not God, nobody, I mean, except God himself.

I had a lot of trouble with the passage et illic discere ex ipso, quod cunctam naturam, quae non est quod ipse, non fecit nisi ipse. Although I got a satisfactory meaning down to this, I had to consult a translation in order to guess at the grammar of this troublesome passage. For this passage, I have tried to write a translation that shows my grammatical guesswork.
Hugh Lawson

RandyGibbons
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Re: Augustine, de civitas dei, book xi, ch.ii

Post by RandyGibbons »

et illic discere ex ipso, quod cunctam naturam, quae non est quod ipse, non fecit nisi ipse
Hi Hugh. I'm not sure where you're stumbling, grammatically, on this. (Not that I was sure of the meaning until I checked my Dyson translation.)

Could you go through the phrase word by word and pinpoint where your questions are?

Randy

hlawson38
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Re: Augustine, de civitas dei, book xi, ch.ii

Post by hlawson38 »

RandyGibbons wrote: Sat Apr 20, 2019 10:28 am
et illic discere ex ipso, quod cunctam naturam, quae non est quod ipse, non fecit nisi ipse
Hi Hugh. I'm not sure where you're stumbling, grammatically, on this. (Not that I was sure of the meaning until I checked my Dyson translation.)

Could you go through the phrase word by word and pinpoint where your questions are?

Randy
et illic discere ex ipso: This seemed clear. The only problem I had was the antecedent of ipso. After much thought, I concluded that the antecedent was a phrase in the sentence, which accounted for the neuter gender.

quod cunctam naturam: I had trouble finding a meaning for quod, perhaps "insofar as"?

quae: clear enough, antecedent must be cunctam naturam.

non est: translates "is not". But what is it that cuncta natura is not? What does non negate?

quod ipse: this pair of words stumped me. What is quod doing here? Who is ipse? ipse is nominative singular, so what is its verb? i now think this phrase assumes est, quod ipse est, what he is. Thus I translate that phrase: "that whole nature which is not the-being-that (quod) God (ipse) is". (est is verb of both quae and ipse, as I now think).

non fecit nisi ipse: what is non negating? I now think that it negates nisi, producing a separated form of nonnisi, which can be translated only.

My guess is that Augustine writes colloquially here, using common expressions easily understood by native Latin speakers. But, because I didn't get it right away, I fell back to formal analysis. When that failed me, I read the translation, and tried to contrive a grammatical rationale for the translation.
Hugh Lawson

RandyGibbons
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Re: Augustine, de civitas dei, book xi, ch.ii

Post by RandyGibbons »

et illic discere ex ipso: This seemed clear. The only problem I had was the antecedent of ipso. After much thought, I concluded that the antecedent was a phrase in the sentence, which accounted for the neuter gender.
Trying to figure this out for myself, before consulting a translation, I wasn't sure whether ipso referred to the general thought preceding it (neuter), as you conjectured, or to God (masculine). I gravitated to the latter as an educated guess about Augustine and because I thought illic supplied the reference to the previous thought. It's clear from the translation that it refers to God, which seems obvious to me in hindsight!
quod cunctam naturam: I had trouble finding a meaning for quod, perhaps "insofar as"?
If I recall correctly from your or someone else's previous posts, I think you may still be a bit confused about the distinction between quod as a conjunction and quod as a relative pronoun. Here it's a conjunction: discedere, quod. This becomes the que, che, etc. of Romance languages. Dyson translation: "there to learn from God himself that ...".

I recommend really scouring the article on quod (as conjunction) in a professional level Latin dictionary.

Not that it isn't easy to be confused by this. According to an article I just found, "Syntactically, these usages of quod [relative pronoun and conjunction] seem far different from one another, but the evidence within the Latin language itself proves that quod's conjunction usage is a development of its usage as a relative pronoun." I'm going to send you a PM with my email address, and if you're interest, email me and I'll send you a copy of article.
quae: clear enough, antecedent must be cunctam naturam.
Yes.
non est: translates "is not". But what is it that cuncta natura is not? What does non negate?
quod ipse: this pair of words stumped me. What is quod doing here? Who is ipse? ipse is nominative singular, so what is its verb? i now think this phrase assumes est, quod ipse est, what he is. Thus I translate that phrase: "that whole nature which is not the-being-that (quod) God (ipse) is". (est is verb of both quae and ipse, as I now think).
"Who is ipse?" Sorry, I have to laugh :lol: . I didn't get this either before looking at the translation. First, if you (and I) didn't get that the preceding ipso was God, then we were less likely to see that this ipse is God too, which of course it is!

Second, I think here again you're getting confused with quod, and maybe in this case because Augustine puts it in the neuter. In this case quod is a relative prounoun, "that every nature which is not what God is,". ", quae non est quod ipse [sc. est],"
non fecit nisi ipse: what is non negating? I now think that it negates nisi, producing a separated form of nonnisi, which can be translated only.
non negates fecit. The object of non fecit is cunctam naturam. '[sc. 'nobody'] made [any nature that is not what God is] except God himself. Non ... nisi is just a nice little rhetorical touch. There may even be a name for the rhetorical device, though I don't know what that is.

My guess is that Augustine writes colloquially here
I wouldn't say so, especially, though by now you're more the expert on Augustine's than I. In my case, it is more his unique theological train of thought that can still throw me.

hlawson38
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Re: Augustine, de civitas dei, book xi, ch.ii

Post by hlawson38 »

Randy Gibbons wrote:
I didn't get this either before looking at the translation. First, if you (and I) didn't get that the preceding ipso was God, then we were less likely to see that this ipse is God too, which of course it is!
Everything in your post is worth my study, Randy, but here you identify my trouble with ipse and its antecedents. Early on, I interpreted the ipso as a reference to Augustine's intellectual work, and I stuck with that even after checking the LCL English translation, which saw Deus as the antecedent to ipso. I simply overlooked what the LCL translation said. I think I just *didn't want* Augustine to mean he got it from God.

One of my weaknesses is sticking too long to an early interpretation, in a way that causes other problems to pile up. This kind of problem is quickly corrected by a teacher, but I don't have one at hand.

Yes, I have big problems with the various uses of quod, but let's not forget the other problems with quid, quo,and qua.

My most important goal in reading Augustine is, by reading a big book by a single author, to enable greater focus on strictly grammatical issues, such as pronouns and antecedents, as distinct from word meanings in abstraction.

Many thanks Randy for your patience in working through this with me.

Hugh.
Hugh Lawson

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