Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
- Cathexis
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:04 pm
Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
Maybe I've been listening to too many old movies<wink>,
Example: Rationibus. Is this always rah-tee-o-nee-bus or can it be ra-shun-ee-bus? (like Eng. "ration.")
TIA,
Cathexis
Example: Rationibus. Is this always rah-tee-o-nee-bus or can it be ra-shun-ee-bus? (like Eng. "ration.")
TIA,
Cathexis
Romani ite Domum
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 2504
- Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm
Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
Only in the old-fashioned and discredited English pronunciation of Latin.
Bill Walderman
- Cathexis
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:04 pm
Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
I knew it! Too much "Mr. Chips", etc.
Thanks!
Cathexis
Thanks!
Cathexis
Romani ite Domum
- Cathexis
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 127
- Joined: Tue Mar 17, 2009 8:04 pm
Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
I should have waited one more day to ask,
After some recent discussion in another thread, I found a copy of Nutting's Primer, 1911 for sale on Ebay for $9.96.
I ordered it and received it yesterday. The Guide to Pronunciation is in the back as Appendix I. Right there it said,
"T always as in tin(never as in rational.)"
So there you go,
Cathexis
After some recent discussion in another thread, I found a copy of Nutting's Primer, 1911 for sale on Ebay for $9.96.
I ordered it and received it yesterday. The Guide to Pronunciation is in the back as Appendix I. Right there it said,
"T always as in tin(never as in rational.)"
So there you go,
Cathexis
Romani ite Domum
-
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm
Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
How could we possibly know?
You will be able to find people at various levels of expertise, up to the highest, with ideas about alternative pronunciations in certain environments.
These ideas have nothing going for them but subjective opinion regarding euphony. But some of them are probably right (just looking at probabilities).
I'm sure my opinion of pronouncing rationibus with "shun" because "ration" is pronounced that way in English needn't be stated.
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 2504
- Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm
Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
We can be pretty certain that -tio(n-) was pronounced as two syllable because pronouncing it as a single syllable wouldn't scan in Latin verse.How could we possibly know?
Bill Walderman
-
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm
-
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 2504
- Joined: Mon Aug 17, 2015 1:16 pm
Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
Ancient Latin pronunciation is pretty well understood. Allen's Vox Latina lays it out along with the evidence.
Bill Walderman
-
- Textkit Member
- Posts: 146
- Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2019 8:21 pm
Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
That evidence is far too thin on the ground to make statements about a given grapheme "always" being pronounced a certain way.
- jeidsath
- Textkit Zealot
- Posts: 5332
- Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
- Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν
Re: Is -"tion" ever pronounced "shun"?
On pg. 51 of Vox Latina, Allen mentions that short i may have had a closer quality before vowels. Compare, he mentions, Latin dies -> Italian/Old French di, quī -> chi/qui.
Footnote:These closer pre-vocalic qualities of e and i are probably due to the y-'glide' which automatically follows them in these conditions–and which the English speaker will automatically produce.
There seems to have been a similar effect on u before a vowel (e.g. in duo), due to an automatic w-'glide'.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com