Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 21 Relative Clauses w/the Subjunctive

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MegasKomnenos
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Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 21 Relative Clauses w/the Subjunctive

Post by MegasKomnenos »

Salvete,

I hope that people are keeping safe as far as possible. To help stave off cabin fever, I have a few more Latin difficulties to ask for help with I'm afraid! This time, the issue is, I hope minor, and is within the passage for translation at the end of Ch. 21 of Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax, namely Ex. 21.2, p.103 - please see the link or my transcription below:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?id=6P5 ... ks&f=false

Ex. 21.2 THE CAUDINE FORKS

Samnites tamen, incerti quid facerent, legatos cum litteris ad Herennium Pontium, patrem imperatoris, miserunt qui eum rogarent ut consilium daret. ille autem, senectute gravatus, a rebus publicis iam diu aberat. sed in corpore invalido valebat vis animi. is ubi audivit ad Furculas Caudinas duos exercitus Romanos clauses esse censuit ut omnes quam primum inviolati dimitterentur. quae cum contempta esset sententia, censuit ut omnes interficerentur. eis rogantibus cur duo tam discordia responsa dedisset, dixit priore consilio, quod melius putaret, Samnites cum potentissimo populo perpetuam pacem amicitiamque firmaturos esse; altero in multos annos bellum dilaturos esse, dum Romani vires recepissent; nullum tertium consilium esse.

Supplied vocabulary:

censeo - I recommend
differo, differre, distuli, dilatum - I put off

Now, I found this passage to be considerably easier than that of the previous chapter (the difficulty curve of this book seems to me to be a little less obviously progressive than is claimed in the introduction and elsewhere). I present here a workmanlike translation to try and demonstrate my understanding of the Latin grammar.

Nevertheless the Samnites, unsure of what they were to do [indirect question], sent envoys to Herennius Pontius, the father of their general, to ask him to give [to them] advice. However that man, weighted down by old age, had already been absent for a long time from public affairs. But in a weak body, strength [of mind - untranslated as per Aetos*] prevailed. He, when he heard that two Roman armies were besieged at the Caudine Forks, recommended that all the uninjured men be discharged as quickly as possible [do I have this right?]. When this sentiment had been disregarded, he recommended that they all be killed. [Abl. absolute w/pres. participle] With them asking why he had given two so discordant replies, he said that by means of the first plan, which he thought the better, the Samnites would affirm a perpetual peace and friendship with a most powerful people; by means of the other, the war would be put off for many years [is this how in + acc. should be translated here - it makes sense in English, but I have not seen this before. I would have just expected an acc. of duration of time/time how long], until the Romans could recover their strength [ubi+subj. temporal clause w/ sense possibility]; there was no third option.

My main concerns here were 1) what precisely is going on grammatically at 'quae cum contempta esset sententia' - I see a connecting relative describing sententia - 'i.e. Which [This] sentiment when it had been disregarded,' and 2) 'in multos annos' and 3) is dum+subjunctive here, as I see it, a temporal clause 'until' with subjunctive used to express possibility? I suppose 3) I was also slightly troubled by whether or not 'priore consilio' and 'altero' are ablatives of means/instrument?

As usual, the pointing out of any howlers - or indeed, even niggling misunderstandings would be immensely appreciated - it all helps me to get better.

Best wishes,

Jamie

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Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 21 Relative Clauses w/the Subjunctive

Post by praepositus »

But in a weak body, strength [of mind - untranslated as per Aetos*] prevailed.
Animi must be translated here. The sentence is laying emphasis on the contrast between corpus and animus. So, something like "in a weak body there was a strong spirit."
recommended that all the uninjured men be discharged as quickly as possible [do I have this right?]
That everyone be released unharmed.
When this sentiment had been disregarded
When this proposal was met with scorn.

quae cum contempta esset sententia = cum ea sententia contempta esset
3) is dum+subjunctive here, as I see it, a temporal clause 'until' with subjunctive used to express possibility?
I think so. According to my dictionary, when it means "until," dum usually takes the subjunctive.

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Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 21 Relative Clauses w/the Subjunctive

Post by Aetos »

praepositus wrote: Sat Mar 21, 2020 4:31 am But in a weak body, strength [of mind - untranslated as per Aetos*] prevailed.

Animi must be translated here. The sentence is laying emphasis on the contrast between corpus and animus. So, something like "in a weak body there was a strong spirit."
I agree with Praepositus here for the same reasons. This selection, by the way, is an adaptation from Livy, Book IX, Chap. 3. In this book Livy is relating the history of the Samnite Wars. I wouldn't spend a lot of time trying to compare the original to the adaptation, but here's the link : https://scaife.perseus.org/reader/urn:c ... ?highlight
He's become one of my favourite authors.

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MegasKomnenos
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Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 21 Relative Clauses w/the Subjunctive

Post by MegasKomnenos »

Hello again Praepositus and Aetos,

Thank you both for having a look at my work - again. Thank you Aetos for the link to the appropriate passage of Livy. May I ask you both, in this clause:

omnes quam primum inviolati dimitterentur

I can see that the sense would be '[he advices them] to let all the men go unharmed as quickly as possible.' But was I right with my literal translation? How do you know that 'unharmed' is the manner he told them to be released in, rather than that already unharmed, they are to be let go?

Thank you both again.

Best,

Jamie

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Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 21 Relative Clauses w/the Subjunctive

Post by praepositus »

I'm not sure I can answer this satisfactorily. Often, adjectives are used to describe the manner in which something happens: vivus ceperat ("had taken when he was alive" vs "the living man had taken"), inviolati dimitterentur ("released unharmed" vs "those unharmed ... released").

Telling when they are so used is a matter of judgement. In this example, the word order all but settles that inviolati qualifies dimitterentur, and also this reading makes more sense than the alternative.

Here is the Allen and Greenough page on "adjectives with adverbial force": http://dcc.dickinson.edu/allen-greenoug ... r-290.html

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MegasKomnenos
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Re: Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 21 Relative Clauses w/the Subjunctive

Post by MegasKomnenos »

praepositus wrote: Mon Mar 23, 2020 8:23 am I'm not sure I can answer this satisfactorily. Often, adjectives are used to describe the manner in which something happens: vivus ceperat ("had taken when he was alive" vs "the living man had taken"), inviolati dimitterentur ("released unharmed" vs "those unharmed ... released").

Telling when they are so used is a matter of judgement. In this example, the word order all but settles that inviolati qualifies dimitterentur, and also this reading makes more sense than the alternative.

Here is the Allen and Greenough page on "adjectives with adverbial force": http://dcc.dickinson.edu/allen-greenoug ... r-290.html
Thank you praepositus,

This is very helpful indeed. I hope you have a good week.

Best,

Jamie

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