Mike Seigel's Latin: A Clear Guide to Syntax Ch. 25 Gerunds and Gerundives of Obligation

[MegasKomnenos]

Good evening,

I return to you, yet again, with another of Mr. Seigel's passages for translation, this time from Ch. 25 p.121 on Gerunds and Gerundives of Obligation - please see Ex. 25.3:

https://books.google.co.uk/books?redir_ ... ba&f=false

I type it out in full below in case the link fails:

Ex. 25.3 - SOPHONISBA, WIFE OF SYPHAX, A DEFEATED AFRICAN KING, BEGS HER HUSBAND'S CONQUEROR, THE NUMIDIAN PRINCE MASINISSA, TO SAVE HER FROM THE ROMANS

Masinissa, praesidio circa portas dispositio, ad regiam occupandam processit. intranti vestibulum in ipso limine Sophonisba, uxor Syphacis, occurrit; et, cum in medio agmine armatorum Masinissam insignem armis et cetero habitu conspexisset, regem esse (id quod erat) rata, ante pedes eius proiecta, 'victoriam quidem istam' inquit, 'di virtusque et fortuna tua dederunt, sed si captivam sines apud victorem verbis supplicibus loqui, precor per maiestatem regalem, in qua paulo antea nos quoque fuimus, ne in Romanorum arbitrium superbum et crudele veniam. si nihil aliud quam Syphacis uxor fuissem, tamen tibi, qui in eadem Africa mecum natus es, me dedere mallem quam hosti externo; cum et Carthaginiensis sim et filia Hasdrubalis ipsius, vides quantum mihi a Romanis timendum sit. si nullo alio modo potes, oro obsecroque ut morte me liberes a Romanorum arbitrio.

SUPPLIED VOCABULARY
arbitrium - authority

Masinissa, after a garrison had been placed about the gates, proceeded to occupy the royal palace. Sophonisba, the wife of Syphax, came upon him upon the threshold itself as he was entering the vestibule. And, when she had caught sight of Masinissa, conspicuous by his armament and the rest of his dress, in the midst of his column of armed men, having thought that he was the king (it being so - lit. that thing which he was), [and] having been cast at his feet said 'Indeed, the gods and your virture and your luck gave you that victory [of yours], but if you will allow a captive to speak with suppliant words, I beg that through your royal dignity, which a little before we also shared in [lit. in which we also were a little before now], that I should not come under the cruel and proud authority of the Romans. If I had been nothing other than the wife of Syphax, still, I should prefer to give myself to you, who was born [lit. alongside me/with me] like me in Africa also [eadem = also], than to a foreign enemy; since I am both a daughter of Carthage and of Hasdrubal himself, you see how much I am to fear the Romans [lit. you see how much to me by the Romans is having to be feared'. If I am able by no other means, I beg and I beseech that you might free me from the authority of the Romans by (means of) death.

The most confusing parts of this passage for me, and thus the parts where I am least sure of my efforts, were the following lines:

intranti vestibulum in ipso limine Sophonisba, uxor Syphacis, occurrit; et, cum in medio agmine armatorum Masinissam insignem armis et cetero habitu conspexisset, regem esse (id quod erat) rata, ante pedes eius proiecta...inquit

Am I right in see occurrit here as being impersonal, with a dative of the person she is meeting/happening upon (i.e. Massinissa), the present participle intranti? After that, I see a temporal cum w/subjunctive indicating past time - 'And, when she had caught sight of Masinissa [being] conspicuous in the middle [of] the crowd of [his] armed men/retainers by means of his arms and by means of the rest of his dress, having reckoned that [ind. disc.] he was the king (that thing which he was), [and] having been thrown before his feet...said...' ?

I also struggled with:

precor per maiestatem regalem, in qua paulo antea nos quoque fuimus,

lit. 'I beg through [your] regal dignity, in which [i.e. within which, she and her husband were enveloped] not long before we also were'

The sense I get here is that per means here something like 'for the sake of' or 'by means of', 'through the intervention of'?

I also had a bit of trouble with:

vides quantum mihi a Romanis timendum sit

Now, Seigel gives an example sentence previous to the passage of the use with an intransitive verb of the gerund, rather than gerundive of obligation:

captivis a nobis parcendum est
lit. to the captives by us it is having to be spared
We must spare the captives.
'Note how in [this] example the agent is expressed by a+abl - to avoid confusion with the dative object of the verb.' (p.120)

Am I right in thinking that timendum sit above is actually still the gerundive of obligation, timeo being a transitive verb - looking here like it could be a gerund because it agrees with quantum - and so, mihi is still the dative agent, with a Romanis = a secondary ablative of personal agent. If I am right, it was a sneaky move on the part of Mr. Seigel. If I am wrong, then I didn't pay close enough attention to a tip he had already given!

Thank you for reading another lengthy essay, and for taking the time to do so. If any howlers I have committed could be brought to my attention, it would be considered an act of kindness!

Best wishes,

Jamie

[Aetos]

Hi Jamie,

intranti vestibulum in ipso limine Sophonisba, uxor Syphacis, occurrit; et, cum in medio agmine armatorum Masinissam insignem armis et cetero habitu conspexisset, regem esse (id quod erat) rata, ante pedes eius proiecta...inquit

I'll just remind you that the perfect participle of a deponent verb often has a present active meaning, in this case (reor=ratus-a-um)could be translated as "thinking". "proiecta": I really think Mr. Seigel meant "having thrown herself at his feet", but that requires a reflexive pronoun. In the original by Livy, he describes the act of supplication in a slightly different way: "genibus advoluta eius" 'having fallen prostrate before his knees'. I'm not sure about this, but I imagine that grasping the knees was still a common form of supplication in 3rd century BCE. This selection comes from Livy, Book 30, Chapter 12, lines 10ff. and is significantly different, but Mr. Seigel has adapted it as he must to teach the constructions of the lesson.

precor per maiestatem regalem, in qua paulo antea nos quoque fuimus,

lit. 'I beg through [your] regal dignity, in which [i.e. within which, she and her husband were enveloped] not long before we also were'

The sense I get here is that per means here something like 'for the sake of' or 'by means of', 'through the intervention of'?

I think 'for the sake of' is how I would translate "per" in this context and there's a lot more context involved-she was originally engaged to Masinissa!

Am I right in thinking that timendum sit above is actually still the gerundive of obligation, timeo being a transitive verb - looking here like it could be a gerund because it agrees with quantum - and so, mihi is still the dative agent, with a Romanis = a secondary ablative of personal agent.

Definitely a gerundive of obligation (Have a look at A&G 500.3), with mihi the agent in the dative. 'a Romanis' I think is either an ablative of source or cause. (How much I have to fear from the Romans)

Stay well!

[seneca2008]

intranti vestibulum in ipso limine Sophonisba, uxor Syphacis, occurrit; et, cum in medio agmine armatorum Masinissam insignem armis et cetero habitu conspexisset, regem esse (id quod erat) rata, ante pedes eius proiecta...inquit

Am I right in see occurrit here as being impersonal, with a dative of the person she is meeting/happening upon (i.e. Massinissa), the present participle intranti? After that, I see a temporal cum w/subjunctive indicating past time - 'And, when she had caught sight of Masinissa [being] conspicuous in the middle [of] the crowd of [his] armed men/retainers by means of his arms and by means of the rest of his dress, having reckoned that [ind. disc.] he was the king (that thing which he was), [and] having been thrown before his feet...said...' ?

Occurit isn't impersonal and as you have translated it the subject is Sophonisba (or Sophoniba as some texts print). As to the dative Lewis and short has

I. [select] Lit.
1. [select] In gen.: “ilico Occucurri atque interpello,” Plaut. Merc. 1, 2, 88: “Caesari venienti,” Caes. B. G. 3, 79: “obviam alicui,” to go to meet, Plaut. Ep. 2, 2, 30: “amicis,” Hor. S. 1, 4, 135; Suet. Calig. 4.—Impers.: “occurritur (sc. mihi),” Cic. Att. 2, 22, 3.—
2. [select] In partic., to go against, rush upon, attack an enemy: “duabus Fabianis legionibus occurrit,” Caes. B. C. 1, 40: “armatis,” id. ib. 2, 27: “telis occurrere,” Verg. A. 11, 808: “obvius adversoque occurrit,” id. ib. 10, 734.—
B. [select] Transf.
1. [select] To come to, meet, fall in with any thing: “quibuscumque signis occurrerat, se aggregabat,” Caes. B. G. 4, 26: “tot vatibus,” Juv. 1, 18.—
2. [select] To go or come to any place.
(α). [select] With dat.: “concilio,” Liv. 31, 29. —

A small point but "in ipso limine" is "on the very threshold". I think there was a post recently about this use of Ipse. vestibulum is better as forecourt or entrance court. He crosses an outside enclosed space before the house itself. (Lewis and Short have "the enclosed space between the entrance of a house and the street, a fore-court, entrance-court (cf. atrium)."

"conspicuous in the middle [of] the crowd of [his] armed men/retainers by means of his arms and by means of the rest of his dress"

I think these are ablative of respect. Conspicuous both by his arms etc.

I think Aetos has answered your other questions on this. if not ask again.

[Aetos]

Thanks for addressing the other questions, Seneca!
Stay well!

[seneca2008]

Ex. 25.3 - SOPHONISBA, WIFE OF SYPHAX, A DEFEATED AFRICAN KING, BEGS HER HUSBAND'S CONQUEROR, THE NUMIDIAN PRINCE MASINISSA, TO SAVE HER FROM THE ROMANS

...........sed si captivam sines apud victorem verbis supplicibus loqui, precor per maiestatem regalem, in qua paulo antea nos quoque fuimus, ne in Romanorum arbitrium superbum et crudele veniam. si nihil aliud quam Syphacis uxor fuissem, tamen tibi, qui in eadem Africa mecum natus es, me dedere mallem quam hosti externo; cum et Carthaginiensis sim et filia Hasdrubalis ipsius, vides quantum mihi a Romanis timendum sit. si nullo alio modo potes, oro obsecroque ut morte me liberes a Romanorum arbitrio.

SUPPLIED VOCABULARY
arbitrium - authority

........but if you will allow a captive to speak with suppliant words, I beg that through your royal dignity, which a little before we also shared in [lit. in which we also were a little before now], that I should not come under the cruel and proud authority of the Romans. If I had been nothing other than the wife of Syphax, still, I should prefer to give myself to you, who was born [lit. alongside me/with me] like me in Africa also [eadem = also], than to a foreign enemy; since I am both a daughter of Carthage and of Hasdrubal himself, you see how much I am to fear the Romans [lit. you see how much to me by the Romans is having to be feared'. If I am able by no other means, I beg and I beseech that you might free me from the authority of the Romans by (means of) death.

Small points but:

what about "apud victorem" ?

If you chose something like the Loeb's "royal state" for "maiestatem regalem" it might be easier to see how your literal translation of "in qua paulo antea nos quoque fuimus" works.

I hope everyone is keeping well too.