315 - where did those refounding Thebes come from

[daivid]

When Kasandros refounded Thebes where did the citizens come from?

When Athens took Thebes 6000 were killed while the survivors, 30,000 were all sold into slavery.
(Diod. 17.14)

So did a large number of Thebans get out of Thebes ahead of times (and surely that would only include those with some wealth to fall back on) or was their some mechanism whereby those enslaved were freed?

[mwh]

Your surely mean not Athens but Alexander.

Diodorus says 30,000 were taken captive. Couldn’t other survivors have got away in the mayhem? And mightn't his figures be exaggerated in any case, as much of the rest of his account obviously is? You could buy your way out of slavery if you had sufficient funds (or ransomed), but I know of no other “mechanism” apart from unpurchased emancipation, as sometimes in wills. But the owners will have paid good money for them.

Pausanias (9.7) doesn’t say anything about enslavement (though it's likely enough) but says the Thebans were turfed out (αναστάτους) by Alex and made their way to Athens. It will have been these survivors that Cassander resettled? I seem to remember that Athens is credited with helping rebuild too. Which surprised me.

[daivid]

Your surely mean not Athens but Alexander.

Most certainly yes. Serious slip there.

Diodorus says 30,000 were taken captive. Couldn’t other survivors have got away in the mayhem? And mightn't his figures be exaggerated in any case, as much of the rest of his account obviously is? You could buy your way out of slavery if you had sufficient funds (or ransomed), but I know of no other “mechanism” apart from unpurchased emancipation, as sometimes in wills. But the owners will have paid good money for them.

I had in mind that some might have indeed been ransomed either in the intervening period or at the time of the refoundation. Possible donors: Rich Theban merchants who felt guilty about abandoning Thebes before the fall and leaving their fellow citizens in the lurch plus anti-Macedonian Greeks from everywhere else.

And I can't see many escaping a walled city as it fell - mayhem would have made it harder still for more than a few to escape.

Pausanias (9.7) doesn’t say anything about enslavement (though it's likely enough) but says the Thebans were turfed out (αναστάτους) by Alex and made their way to Athens. It will have been these survivors that Cassander resettled?.

I didn't know about Pausanias reference to the events so thanks for that. However, Pausanias is racing thru events going from Chaeronea to the sack in a few lines while Diodorus gives a fairly full account. Especially given that Diodorus is thought to have relied of Ephorus who would have known I don't have much hesitation in preferring Diodorus' account.

I seem to remember that Athens is credited with helping rebuild too. Which surprised me.

They stood together at Chaeronea, the rebellion in which led to the destruction of Thebes was one in which Athens was on the same side a Thebes, and throw in a bit of survivors guilt - not surprising at all.

Sure Athens had often been at war with Thebes before Chaeronea but look how quickly America and West Germany became staunch allies after the second world war.

[mwh]

Ransoming a possibility I suppose, but would it be known who the owners were? And we don’t know that any rich Thebans got out beforehand, or do we? Or will they have already been abroad?

Sure Diodorus’ account is more detailed and almost certainly has Ephorus behind it, but it’s Pausanias who mentions the survivors escaping to Athens, and he must have some authority—good authority?—for that. It provides a potential population for the refounding too, answering your question, so that gives it added plausibility?

You’re right, it shouldn’t have surprised me. But the cynic in me wonders what was in it for Athens.

[Scribo]

Oh, this stuff isn't at the front of my head anymore and I've not time yet to go through my old notes but I'd recommend checking out Alexander and the exiles decree(s). Something like that. It's a good example of how large populations were moved around during the time period and the scholarship has focused on the origins and effects of such things - very clever political movements tbh.

[Markos]

Sure Athens had often been at war with Thebes before Chaeronea but look how quickly America and West Germany became staunch allies after the second world war.

The French maybe not so much:

I love Germany so much I'm glad there are two of them.

[daivid]

Ransoming a possibility I suppose, but would it be known who the owners were? And we don’t know that any rich Thebans got out beforehand, or do we? Or will they have already been abroad?

All we really know for sure is that there were Theban exiles who could be invited back by Kassandros. I would expect at least some merchants to be outside of Thebes just conducting their business. It seems to me plausible that some of the other citizens whose prudence exceeded there patriotism might "discover" important business in Athens when they realized that Thebes was set on fighting again the Macedonians. Of course some may have got out after the fall of Thebes - I just can't picture more than a handful escaping after the fall.
As to ransoming, it doesn't seem implausible for those who had sympathy for Thebes to send an agent to Delos to purchase anyone being sold as a slave who was from Thebes. If such group had the funds to pay a premium for Thebans could not slave dealers think it worth while to bring any Thebans that came their way to Athens (or where ever)?

Sure Diodorus’ account is more detailed and almost certainly has Ephorus behind it, but it’s Pausanias who mentions the survivors escaping to Athens, and he must have some authority—good authority?—for that. It provides a potential population for the refounding too, answering your question, so that gives it added plausibility?

It does. Pasaunias' account does indeed fit with Alexander merely expelling the Thebans (in which case a large exile population in Athens is no mystery) but don't think it requires it. It is vague to an extent that makes me think that Pausanias was really focused on the return when he wrote that sentence and so only vaguely alludes to how a number of Thebans got to Athens. He may not even have known how they got there. He nowhere attempts to refute those who say that those Thebans captured by Alexander were sold as slaves.
Diodorus is, by contrast. very explicit that those captured were sold as slaves and I don't see any good grounds for rejecting Diodorus in this case.

You’re right, it shouldn’t have surprised me. But the cynic in me wonders what was in it for Athens.

Refounded Thebes could be expected to be loyal to Kassandros and his dynasty but Athens may well have calculated that, should Kassandros' dynasty not last long, Thebes would be a potential ally against Macedonia.