Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post Reply
User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 969
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Contact:

Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

One passage from the Talmud says to wait patiently, because the degrees of the Caesar would be cancelled at his death. Is tgat an historically accurate statement under Roman law?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by mwh »

No.

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 969
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Contact:

Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

Is the force of a decree nullified if the original document is no longer in the treasury?
Rabbi Shimon Bar Yochai, by Nissan Mindel wrote:Once again religious persecution increased. The Romans prohibited Shabbat observance and other important Jewish laws.

The Sages decided to send a delegation to Rome, and chose Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai to head the delegation.

When they came to Rome, they heard that the daughter of the Roman emperor had lost her mind and that no one could cure her. Rabbi Shimon bar Yochai proceeded to the palace and asked for permission to treat the patient. After a few days’ treatment the princess became well. In gratitude, the emperor told Rabbi Shimon that he could choose the most precious thing in his treasury. Rabbi Shimon found there the original decrees of persecution, and claimed them as his reward. Thus he succeeded in bringing great salvation to his people.
In this case, would Rabbi Shimon bar Yohai's action have stopped the persecution in his becoming the owner of the decree?
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

mwh
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 4790
Joined: Fri Oct 18, 2013 2:34 am

Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by mwh »

Well, that’s the implication of the story, but the entire story is self-evidently fictive. It has all the hallmarks of folktale and no claim to historicity. In fact it’s interestingly novelistic in character. Such tales invariably get attached to culturally significant figures. (Jesus of Nazareth, for one.)
In actuality, imperial decrees, like laws, remained in force until revoked or superseded, and making off with copies from the treasury(?!) would have no effect on their validity.

A small irony. Today there’s a Jewish settlement named for Shimon bar Yochai. It occupies the site of the massacre of a Palestinian village’s inhabitants by Israeli forces.

User avatar
jeidsath
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 5332
Joined: Mon Dec 30, 2013 2:42 pm
Location: Γαλεήπολις, Οὐισκόνσιν

Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by jeidsath »

I looked this up. Safsaf.

Further irony: It was Safsofa from Roman times down until the 1948 war. Apparently a Rabbi was once imprisoned there, and his colleagues appealed to Zenobia.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

User avatar
ἑκηβόλος
Textkit Zealot
Posts: 969
Joined: Wed Aug 07, 2013 10:19 am
Contact:

Re: Were the degrees cancelled at a caesar's death?

Post by ἑκηβόλος »

jeidsath wrote:It was Safsofa from Roman times down until the 1948 war.
There is no reference to the time after 1948 in the Safsaf article, and Kfar Hoshen the modern village has its own wikipedia entry. Even the name Safsaf is re-etymologised from "weeping willow" (Arabic etymology) to "the land where fruits ripen later" (Hebrew etymology).
τί δὲ ἀγαθὸν τῇ πομφόλυγι συνεστώσῃ ἢ κακὸν διαλυθείσῃ;

Post Reply