Pursuing wisdom: insightful interpretations of Plato?

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pursuing wisdom
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Pursuing wisdom: insightful interpretations of Plato?

Post by pursuing wisdom »

I stumbled into a couple helpful academic interpretations of Plato that led me to Tufts Perseus Digital Library (PDL), and hence to Textkit. One was Jacob Needleman's interpretation, expressed in "The Heart of Philosophy", that Plato's Republic is a metaphor for the mind. Needleman argued that Plato's view of art was less censorship than advancing the need for the "State" (government of the mind) to control the consumption of art because of its emotional programming effect. The more important point is that "the Republic is a metaphor about the inner structure" of the mind, (p.133-134). I'm seeking support for that assertion, which seems likely, but the text lacked an explicit footnote (which might not exist). I'm wondering if that view represents an implicit construction from context, perhaps expressed by others, e.g., one of Needleman's sources, or an original synthesis by Needleman.

The other interpretation was Laura Marshall's argument in "Not a Gadfly: When a Crucial Reading Goes Wrong". Marshall argues that the Greek rendered as "gadfly" is better rendered as "spur", which prompted me to attempt some translation using PDL. As a modestly skilled computer programmer, I began to wonder if, absent a better tool, I might help create some automation to help create alternative translations. I'm just learning about PDL and Scaife open source. It might be easier for me to leverage automation than learn much ancient language. But tapping the crowd wisdom on this forum might prove more productive.

If Needleman's and Marshall's interpretations are correct, they go far toward improving my understanding of Plato.

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jeidsath
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Re: Pursuing wisdom: insightful interpretations of Plato?

Post by jeidsath »

pursuing wisdom wrote: Sun Mar 08, 2020 10:01 pmAs a modestly skilled computer programmer, I began to wonder if, absent a better tool, I might help create some automation to help create alternative translations.
Knowing how terrible Google translate is at even simple texts in closely related modern languages, do you really think that you'll get much out of a computer based approach (which for ancient Greek would be learning from a small corpus, identical to the one you wish to translate)? Consider learning the language instead.

On "gadfly", see Burnet: https://babel.hathitrust.org/cgi/pt?id= ... up&seq=228

"the Republic is a metaphor about the inner structure" of the mind" -- this is explicitly stated in the Republic, and the entire reason for the discussion.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

pursuing wisdom
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Re: Pursuing wisdom: insightful interpretations of Plato?

Post by pursuing wisdom »

Thanks for that informative reply. I had tried Google translate on a "gadfly" excerpt from PDL [http://www.perseus.tufts.edu/hopper/tex ... tion%3D30e], and the result was appalling. I agree with your view that Machine Learning from a small corpus is unlikely to offer a useful result. A SNePS-like approach might prove more productive. Absent funding, I'm insufficiently ambitious to attempt either. But as I found myself using the PDL, I thought that I might improve open source translation tools, so I'm exploring that. For me, the automation exercise would be designed to help me learn the language, if not extend the open source tools by voluntary contribution. Textkit seems invaluable to help me understand ancient languages in the tidbits that I might assimilate.

Is there a topic for the gadfly v. spur interpretation? Perhaps I could post teasers from Marshall's paper. I've requested her consent to share her paper by private email, but those with access can find it as "Journal of Hellenic Studies 137 (2017) 163–174 © The Society for the Promotion of Hellenic Studies 2017 ... Downloaded from ... https://doi.org/10.1017/S007542691700012X". She addresses Burnet, especially by footnote on (pdf) p.4, citing the "lack of evidence" advanced by German scholars in "the 1879 issue of the journal Neue Jahrbücher für Philologie und Paedagogik".

Is there a topic for the political v. psychological interpretation of Plato's Republic? After a closer reading of a wiki [https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Republic_ ... ul_analogy], that appears to be another subject of debate. These differences of metaphorical interpretation make a profound difference in understanding the author's intent.

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Re: Pursuing wisdom: insightful interpretations of Plato?

Post by jeidsath »

pursuing wisdom wrote: Mon Mar 09, 2020 4:34 pm A SNePS-like approach might prove more productive.
I personally find the likelihood of that extremely remote. You may wish to invest in a good NLP textbook.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: Pursuing wisdom: insightful interpretations of Plato?

Post by pursuing wisdom »

I agree that NLP might translate ancient languages little better than ML, i.e., badly. I prefer to learn from a useful system, at least what I find useful in Perseus, if not other systems.

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