Scholia concerning Hippo and the Presocratics

[njmolinari]

Hello Friends,

I've finished a major revision of the iconography section of my Acheloios corpus and I'm returning to the literature and inscription section. For the most part I'm using old translation in the public domain, but there isn't one for this. Attached is the excpert (a scholia on Homer 21.194-7) that refers to the influence of these lines on the Presocratics, particularly Hippo. But I can't quite understand the view they are attributing to Hippo. Help is greatly appreciated.


F 1, 3 (ed. Diels and Kranz)= SCHOL. HOMER. Genev. p. 197, 19 Nicole zu Homer Φ 195

ἀλλ' οὐκ ἔστι Διὶ Κρονίωνι μάχεσθαι· τῶι οὐδὲ κρείων Ἀχελώιος ἰσοφαρίζει οὐδὲ βαθυρρείταο μέγα σθένος Ὠκεανοῖο, ἐξ οὗ περ πάντες Ποταμοὶ καὶ πᾶσα θάλασσα καὶ πᾶσαι κρῆναι καὶ φρείατα μακρὰ νάουσιν. Κράτης δὲ ἐν β τῶν Ὁμηρικῶν δεικνύς, ὅτι Ὠκεανὸς ‘Μεγάλη θάλασσα’· “ταῦτα γάρ, φησίν, μόνως ἂν ἁρμόττοι ῥηθῆναι περὶ τῆς ἐκτὸς θαλάσσης, ἣν ἔτι καὶ νῦν οἱ μὲν ‘Μεγάλην θάλατταν’, οἱ δὲ ’Ἀτλαντικὸν πέλαγος’, οἱ δὲ Ὠκεανὸν προσαγορεύουσιν. ποταμὸς δὲ ποῖος ἂν δύναιτο ταύτην ἔχειν τὴν δύναμιν; καίτοι γ' ἔνιοι ἐξαιροῦντες τὸν περὶ τοῦ Ὠκεανοῦ στίχον [195] τῶι Ἀχελώιωι περιτιθέασι ταῦτα, ὃς οὐχ ὅτι τῆς θαλάσσης μείων ἐστίν, ἀλλὰ καὶ τῶν ἐν αὐτῆι κόλπων, λέγω δὴ Τυρρηνικοῦ καὶ Ἰονίου. εἶπε δὲ τοῖς τρισίν [195 – 197], φησίν, ὅ τι καὶ οἱ μετὰ ταῦτα φυσικοὶ συνεφώνησαν, τὸ περιέχον τὴν γῆν κατὰ τὸ πλεῖστον μέρος ὕδωρ Ὠκεανὸν εἶναι, ἐξ οὗπερ τὸ πότιμον. Ἵππων· ‘τὰ γὰρ ὕδατα πινόμενα πάντα ἐκ τῆς θαλάσσης ἐστίν· οὐ γὰρ δή που τὰ φρέατα βαθύτερα ἢ ἡ θάλασσά ἐστιν ἐξ ὧν πίνομεν· οὕτω γὰρ οὐκ ἂν ἐκ τῆς θαλάσσης τὸ ὕδωρ εἴη, ἀλλ' ἄλλοθέν ποθεν. νῦν δὲ ἡ θάλασσα βαθυτέρα ἐστὶ τῶν ὑδάτων. ὅσα οὖν καθύπερθεν τῆς θαλάςσης ἐστί, πάντα ἀπ' αὐτῆς ἐστιν’. οὕτως τὰ αὐτὰ εἴρηκεν

Trans. Butler (1898)/Google+Me

but there is no fighting against Zeus the son of Kronos, with whom not even King Akheloos can compare, nor the Great might of deep-flowing Ocean, from whom all rivers and seas.... And Kratis in b of the Homerics shows that Oceanos is the 'Great sea'; "these things, let's say, only if it is rightly said about the outer sea, which was then and now the 'Great Sea', and the 'Atlantic Sea', they command the ocean. But what kind of river has that power, even if you exclude the verse about the ocean [195]. Acheloios appears this way, who is not only of the sea, but also the gulfs in it, I say the Tyrrhenian and the Ionian. And he said concerning the three lines [195 – 197], see, this is what the physicists after also agree to, that the water that contains the earth for the most part is the ocean, from where the water is. Hippo. For the waters that are drunk are always from the sea; for it is not said that the wells are deeper or the sea is from where we drink; for it is not that the water was from the sea, but from some other place. but now the sea is deeper than the waters. Whatever is on the other side of the sea is always from it. that's how he said these things

I've bolded the part that is most troublesome.

As always, I would enthusiastically welcome a competent translator to joing the team, if there is anyone interested.

Nick

[jeidsath]

The Butler quote doesn't extend quite far enough. Also, you've left out the last word of the Κράτης quote. ...Ὁμήρωι".

The Google Translate output that you've quoted for the rest is best forgotten. You may wish to search the web for "Google translate tattoo" for a morning's worth of hilarity.

OpenAI's ChatGPT translation of this though, is *scarily* better (minus the very unfortunate error at the start).

States in the Iliad show that Oceanus is referred to as "Great Sea". This name is only applied to the outer sea and still today some call it "Great Sea" while others call it "Atlantic Ocean" or simply "Oceanus". What river could have the power to contain it? Some exclude the Oceanus verse and attribute it to the Achelous, not because it's smaller than the sea, but also because of its bays, like the Tyrrhenian and Ionian. After that, the natural philosophers agreed that most of the land is mostly water, which is Oceanus, from which the potable water comes. Hippon says that all drinkable water comes from the sea and that the food sources are not deeper than the sea, otherwise the water wouldn't be from the sea but from somewhere else. Now, the sea is deeper than the waters. So, everything that comes from the sea is from it.

It drops a couple of little phrases. I don't know why.

EDIT: Never mind, OpenAI is picking up this passage from its corpus, where it has been translated before.

[njmolinari]

Thank you, Joel, this is very helpful. I haven’t used ChatGPT for translation yet but I will give it a try.