North And Hillard Latin Prose Composition Preliminary Exercises

[seneca2008]

Thanks Michael.

I have edited domi to domum in the quotes above. I had corrected it in my offline version but copied and pasted from the incorrect version in the thread. Will post the corrected version in due course.

My inclination is to omit eius and everyone agrees that suam should go.

Yes there seem to be two 16s. A Quō interfectus est? is 15.

So 18 should be "Ea nōn est mulier cuius fīlius aderat." ?

In 12 I agree that the word order is not so good. In fact would "Quod nōmen tibi est cārissimum? work or does that alter the sense?

edit shouldn’t 11 be Num without non? Likewise 17. Yes of course. Not sure why i put an extra non.

[katalogon]

So 18 should be "Ea nōn est mulier cuius fīlius aderat." ?

Does that mean that 13 should be

Hic est liber quem perdidī.

?

[bedwere]

13 I would say
Hic est liber quem perdidī.

cf. Cic. in Verrem 3.9.22

hic est Apronius quem in provincia tota Verres, cum undique nequissimos homines conquisisset, et cum ipse secum sui similis duxisset non parum multos, nequitia luxuria audacia sui simillimum iudicavit;

[seneca2008]

Thanks Katalogon and Bedwere. The Cicero quote convinces me.

[seneca2008]

Here are revised versions of B and C. Corrections and comments welcome.

Edit: Edited to take account of Bedwere's suggestions below.

Exercise B

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Exercise B.
COMMAND; REMOTER OBJECT.

1.Give me this book.
Dā mihi hunc librum.

2. Do not give him a sword, but give him arrows.
Nōlī eī dare gladium, sed (dā eī) sagittās. Nōlite eī dare gladium, sed (date eī) sagittās.

3. Let us go, and let them remain here.
Nōs eāmus illī autem maneant hīc.

4. Do not go home, but return to us.

Nōlī īre domum, sed ad nōs redī. Nōlite īre domum, sed ad nōs redīte.

5. Let him go away now, but come again.

Nunc quidem discēdat, sed redeat.

6. Keep these books. Do not lose them.

Servā hōs librōs. Nōlī eōs perdere.

7. Let us fortify the city with walls.

Urbem moenibus mūniāmus.

8. Do not let us return to the city.

Nē ad urbem redeāmus.

9. Boys, obey your masters.

Puerī, magistrīs pārēte.

10. Let us spend the winter in the city.

In urbe hiemem agāmus

11. Do not remain at home.

Nōlī domī manēre.

12. Let them build ships. Let them not be afraid of the sea.
Nāves aedificent. Nē mare timeant.

13. Do not give me the book. 

Nōlī librum mihi dare.

14. This is Caius's book--give it to him.

Hic liber Cāiī est, eum eī dā.

15. Do not let us remain here.

Nē hīc maneāmus.

16. Let him be killed.

Interficiātur.

17. Do not be afraid of the sea.

Nōlī mare timēre.

18. Citizens, defend the city with your arms.

Cīvēs urbem armīs dēfendite.

19. Give me the letter.

Dā mihi epistulam.

20. Let all return to the city.

Omnēs ad urbem redeant.

Exercise C

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Exercise C.
APPOSITION; COMPOSITE SUBJECT.

1. Romulus, son of Mars, was the first king of the Romans.
Rōmulus, fīlius Martis, rēx prīmus Rōmānōrum erat.

2. Obey the king, the father of his country.
Pārēte rēgī, patrī patriae.

3. You and your brother will be killed by the enemy.
Tū et fīlius tuus ab hostibus interficiēminī.

4. Caius and I are well.
Cāius et ego valēmus.

5. The youths were killed by their father, Brutus.
Iuvenēs ā patre Brūtō interfectī sunt.

6. You and I and our friends will set out.
Tū et ego et amīcī nostrī proficīscēmur.

7. The king and queen are dear to all of the citizens.
Rēx et rēgīna cārī omnibus cīvibus sunt.

8. By good laws Numa, the second king of Rome, benefited his country.
Numa, rēx secundus Rōmae, lēgibus bonīs patriae prōfuit.

9. Both men and women were killed by the soldiers.
Et virī et fēminae ā mīlitibus interfectī sunt.

10. All of us love life, the greatest gift of the gods.
Omnēs vītam, dōnum deōrum maximum, amāmus.

11. The king lost his kingdom and his riches, the things most pleasant to him.
Rēx rēgnum et dīvitiās, rēs eī iūcundissimās perdidit.

12. Citizens, obey me, your king.
Cīvēs, mihi pārēte, rēgī vestrō.

13. Neither the king nor his sons will be killed.
Neque rēx neque fīliī interficientur.

14. The king and his son Caius have been killed.
Rēx et Cāius fīlius interfectī sunt.

15. He and I will go away.
Is et ego discēdēmus.

16. Give the letter to me, your king.
Dā epistulam mihi, rēgī tuō.

17. She and her brother have been sent home.
Ea et frāter domum dīmissī sunt.

18. His father, the king of Italy, has sent him.
Pater eius, rēx Italiae, eum mīsit.

19. I have come to you, my own brother.
Ad tē vēnī, meum frātrem.
20. Both the men and the women are good citizens.
Et virī et fēminae bonī cīvēs sunt.

[bedwere]

Only suggestions for style.

B.3 Let us go, and let them remain here.
Nōs eāmus, illī autem hīc maneant.

B5. Let him go away now, but come again.

Nunc quidem discēdat, sed redeat.

APPOSITION; COMPOSITE SUBJECT.

[seneca2008]

Here are C and D with the corrections and suggestions offered above for which many thanks. If you spot further mistakes please let me know.

Exercise C

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Exercise C.

APPOSITION; COMPOSITE SUBTECT.

1. Romulus, son of Mars, was the first king of the Romans.
Rōmulus, fīlius Martis, rēx prīmus Rōmānōrum fuit.

2. Obey the king, the father of his country.
Pārēte rēgī, patrī patriae.

3. You and your brother will be killed by the enemy.
Tū et fīlius tuus ab hostibus interficiēminī.

4. Caius and I are well.
Cāius et ego valēmus.

5. The youths were killed by their father, Brutus.
Iuvenēs ā patre Brūtō interfectī sunt

6. You and I and our friends will set out.
Tū et ego et amīcī nostrī proficīscēmur.

7. The king and queen are dear to all of the citizens.
Rēx et rēgīna cārī omnibus cīvibus sunt.

8. By good laws Numa, the second king of Rome, benefited his country.
Numa, rēx secundus Rōmae, lēgibus bonīs patriae prōfuit.

9. Both men and women were killed by the soldiers.
Et virī et fēminae ā mīlitibus interfectī sunt.

10. All of us love life, the greatest gift of the gods.
Omnēs vītam, dōnum deōrum maximum, amāmus.

11. The king lost his kingdom and his riches, the things most pleasant to him.
Rēx rēgnum et dīvitiās, rēs eī iūcundissimās perdidit.

12. Citizens, obey me, your king.
Cīvēs, mihi pārēte, rēgī vestrō.

13. Neither the king nor his sons will be killed.
Neque rēx neque fīliī interficientur.

14. The king and his son Caius have been killed.
Rēx et Cāius fīlius interfectī sunt.

15. He and I will go away.
Is et ego discēdēmus.

16. Give the letter to me, your king.
Dā epistulam mihi, rēgī tuō.

17. She and her brother have been sent home.
Ea et frāter domum dīmissī sunt.

18. His father, the king of Italy, has sent him.
Pater eius, rēx Italiae, eum mīsit.

19. I have come to you, my own brother.
Ad tē vēnī, meum frātrem.

20. Both the men and the women are good citizens.
Et virī et fēminae bonī cīvēs sunt.

Exercise D

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Exercise D.

QUESTIONS; USE OF RELATIVE.

1. Who saw the man, who killed the king?
Quis virum vīdit, qui rēgem interfēcit.

2. Did you, who were present, see him?
Vīdistīne eum tū, qui aderās? (vīdistisne eum vōs, quī aderātis?)

3. Did not Marius, the Roman general, conquer the Teutones.
Nōnne Marius, dux Rōmānus, Teutonōs vīcit?

4. He was not killed by the enemy, was he?
Num ab hostibus interfectus est?

5. Has he lost the presents which you gave him?
Perdiditne dōna quae eī dedistī?

6. What general conquered the Teutones?
Quī dux Teutonōs vīcit?

7. What did you buy for your brother?
Quid frātrī tuō ēmistī?

8. I have lost the book which I bought for my brother.
Librum, quem frātrī meō ēmī, perdidī.

9. Whose son are you?
Cuius fīlius es?

10. Were you not present?
Nōnne aderās?

11. Surely he did not say that?
Num id nōn dīxit?

12. What name is dearest to you?
Quod nōmen tibi est cārissimum?

13. This is the book that I lost.
Hic est liber quem perdidī.

14. What cities has he taken?
Quās urbēs cēpit?

15. By whom was he killed?
Ā quō interfectus est?

16. Am I not your father?
Nōnne pater tuus sum?

17. He did not say that, did he?
Num id dīxit?

18. She is not the woman, whose son was present.
Ea nōn est mulier cuius fīlius aderat.

19. What city do I see?
Quam urbem videō?

20. What man's house have you bought?
Cuius virī domum ēmistī?

[mwh]

Various alternative possibilities of course, and several of these are unidiomatic. (e.g. D2 looks a bit odd.)

I haven’t checked all, but D17 should be Num id dīxit? (and 15 A quo long A and lower-case q).

[seneca2008]

I have edited D 17 and 15 thanks.

Would "vīdistisne eum vōs, quī aderātis? be better for d2? (Making it plural and using imperfect)

[katalogon]

Would "vīdistisne eum vōs, quī aderātis? be better for d2? (Making it plural and using imperfect)

The imperfect now agrees with the usage of adsum in 10 and 18, so that seems better.

But singular also seems ok to me:
Vīdistīne eum tū, quī aderās?

[bedwere]

Would "vīdistisne eum vōs, quī aderātis? be better for d2? (Making it plural and using imperfect)

The imperfect now agrees with the usage of adsum in 10 and 18, so that seems better.

But singular also seems ok to me:
Vīdistīne eum tū, quī aderās?

Speaking of imperfect:


C.1. Romulus, son of Mars, was the first king of the Romans.
Rōmulus, fīlius Martis, rēx prīmus Rōmānōrum erat.

I'd rather use fuit.

[seneca2008]

Thanks @bedwere and @katalogon I have edited c and d above again.

[seneca2008]

(Post edited to take account of comments)

Grateful for comments on the first 10 of:

Exercise E.
FACTITIVE VERBS;
VERBS GOVERNING TWO ACCUSATIVES.

1. The people elected Pompey consul. 

Populus Pompēium cōnsulem creāvit


2. Marius, who was often elected consul, was a great general.
Marius, quī cōnsul saepe creātus est, dux magnus fuit.


3. You have often asked me for advice, which I cannot give you. 

Saepe me cōnsilium rogāvistī, quod tibi dare nōn potuī.
 ( not sure about perfect here perhaps it should be present nōn possum)

4. He was thought a good general by all.
Dux bonus ab omnibus esse putābar. (is habitus est better than putābar? Cicero seems to use it a lot.)


5. You wished to conceal the sword from me, but it was given me by the slave.
Gladium me cēlare voluistī sed mihi ab servō dabātur

6. You have been taught many things by your master.
Multās rēs ab magistrō doctus es. ( Multās rēs seems to be used a lot by Cicero but is it correct here?)

7. Did I not teach you Greek?
Nōnne tē Linguam Graecam docuī.

8. The general asked the consul for the soldiers.
Dux cōnsulem mīlitēs rogāvit.

9. Marius, who became the enemy of Sulla, killed many Roman citizens.
Marius, quī inimicus atque hostis Sullae factus est, multōs civēs romanōs interfēcit. ( I was trying to capture a political and personal dislike but is hostis sufficient?)

10. You and I will hide this from our friends.
Tu et ego hōc amīcōs cēlābimus.

[bedwere]

2. Marius, who was often elected consul, was a great general.
Marius, quī cōnsul saepe creātus est, dux magnus fuit.


[seneca2008]

Thanks bedwere. My attempt was pretty hopeless. I need to take a bit more time over these I think. Will try a bit harder on the next 10. Grateful for corrections on these in the meantime.

[katalogon]

5. You wished to conceal the sword from me, but it was given me by the slave.
Gladium me cēlare voluistī sed mihi ab servō dabātur

1. Should we change dabātur to the perfect, datus est?

2. Gildersleeve section 339, Remark 1: "This then is not the only way, For it is also right to say, Docēre and cēlāre dē,"
So perhaps we could indicate an optional dē in front of mē?

Gladium (dē) mē cēlāre voluistī sed mihi ā servō datus est.

[seneca2008]

Thanks Katalogon. My inclination is not to include dē. This should be a simple exercise with the verb taking two accusatives. I read Gildersleeve to mean dē is also found and is possible, rather than it being standard. What do others think?

Happy to change my imperfect for the perfect. I did these in a bit of a rush.

[mwh]

I don’t have the book, so I don’t know what’s been taught.

3 I guess this is what the book wants, but I don’t think the double acc. is acceptable here; with consilium as object, should be “a me” (long a, long e)
And possum not potui

4 putābātur or existimābātur

5 volebas better?
me long e, celare long a
Delete eum!
ā not ab
datus est

6 ā not ab

8 1s this really correct latin? See on 3.

9 hostis is all that’s needed.
cives both vowels long.

10 Ego et tu would be more like Latin

[katalogon]

My inclination is not to include dē. This should be a simple exercise with the verb taking two accusatives. I read Gildersleeve to mean dē is also found and is possible, rather than it being standard.

Woodcock has section 16 (page 12) with a discussion of the two objects of cēlō.
It's seems that dē + abl. was used if the meaning was "to keep somebody in the dark" but with the thing, not the person! If the meaning is "to conceal" then two accusatives are used.

I would agree that we should keep it to the simple case of two accusative objects, keeping in mind the objective of the lesson.

[katalogon]

3 I guess this is what the book wants, but I don’t think the double acc. is acceptable here; with consilium as object, should be “a me” (long a, long e)

I'm looking in G.J. Adler, which is more oriented towards conversation, Lesson LX Verbs followed by two accusatives.

For rogō, with two accusatives, he gives two examples:

Meō iūre tē hoc beneficium rogō. I ask you for this favor, as one to which I am entitled.
Numquam deōs dīvitiās rogāvī. I have never asked the gods for riches.

But then he has below a remark: Verbs of asking and demanding sometimes have also aliquid ab aliquō.

[seneca2008]

I don’t have the book, so I don’t know what’s been taught.

Thanks for your corrections and suggestions. These "preliminary exercises" are preliminary in the sense that they are revision of grammar which the authors assume one should already know before starting the main exercises. No instruction is provided and the only hint about what is covered is provided by the titles at the head of each exercise.

This is from the preface " Before beginning this book a boy (sic!!) should be able to translate simple sentences (including easy questions and commands) into Latin, and should understand the rules of agreement, the use of the Passive Voice, the simplest uses of Pronouns and Prepositions, and the easiest Case constructions. (Ablative of Instrument, Agent, Cause; Dative of Indirect Object and Possessor; Accusative after Factitive Verbs, etc.) But for the occasional revision of this elementary work the "Preliminary Exercises " (A to K) are prefixed."

My motivation for working through these exercises was to provide a set of possible solutions which the published key lacks. The fact that since starting this thread on 21 March it has been viewed over 1,400 times might indicate that there is interest in this project.

[seneca2008]

Woodcock has section 16 (page 12) with a discussion of the two objects of cēlō.
It's seems that dē + abl. was used if the meaning was "to keep somebody in the dark" but with the thing, not the person! If the meaning is "to conceal" then two accusatives are used.

Thanks for your references. You and others might also be interested in Pinkster

Pinkster

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Woodcock is succinct and helpful.

[seneca2008]

I have taken account of the comments above, latest changes shown in bold

Exercise E.
FACTITIVE VERBS;
VERBS GOVERNING TWO ACCUSATIVES.

1. The people elected Pompey consul. 

Populus Pompēium cōnsulem creāvit


2. Marius, who was often elected consul, was a great general.
Marius, quī cōnsul saepe creātus est, dux magnus fuit.


3. You have often asked me for advice, which I cannot give you. 

Saepe ā mē cōnsilium rogāvistī, quod tibi dare non possum.

4. He was thought a good general by all.
Dux bonus ab omnibus esse putābātur.


5. You wished to conceal the sword from me, but it was given me by the slave.
Gladium mē cēlāre volēbās sed mihi ā servō datus est.

6. You have been taught many things by your master.
Multās rēs ā magistrō doctus es.

7. Did I not teach you Greek?
Nōnne tē linguam Graecam docuī.

8. The general asked the consul for the soldiers.
Dux ā cōnsule mīlitēs rogāvit.

9. Marius, who became the enemy of Sulla, killed many Roman citizens.
Marius, quī hostis Sullae factus est, multōs cīvēs Romanōs interfēcit.

10. You and I will hide this from our friends.
Ego et tu hōc amīcōs cēlābimus.

[seneca2008]

I have found the following in R Colebourn Latin sentence and idiom about Rogo:

Colebourn

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I think this makes it clear that when the person who is asked for something is expressed one has to use ab plus ablative.

[mwh]

I regret having opened such a can of worms! But many thanks seneca for researching authorities, esp. Pinkster. What to do? Simplest would be to ignore all the pesky complications and use double acc. throughout, in line with the heading “VERBS GOVERNING TWO ACCUSATIVES.” But the qualms I expressed about 3 and 8 do seem to be valid, so I propose we keep the revised versions of them, perhaps with a note giving the double accusative as a dispreferred alternative.

I spot nothing else needing change apart from very minor upper/lower-case modification in 7 l(inguam) and 9 R(omanos). But I'm the world's worst proof-reader.

[katalogon]

This has really helped me. The Colebourn extract makes 8 clear (to me).

The general asked the consul for the soldiers.

The general is asking for (requesting) soldiers. One object. But he needs to go to the consul and ask that the cōnsul be the source of the soldiers.

So to me it is clear that ā cōnsule is correct, and adds clarity. The main action is requesting soldiers; asking that of the cōnsul is a secondary action.

Number 3. You have often asked me for advice, which I cannot give you.

To me, this one could be analyzed as in number 8. You need advice, you ask for (request) advice, one object. You go to a particular person and ask that person to be the source of the advice.

ā mē seems correct and adds clarity.

But, I feel that cōnsilium and sententia are close in meaning, and each might refer to what is inside the head of the person being asked. I'm asking your opinion; I'm asking your advice. I'm asking you to tell me what is inside your head. Perhaps one could argue that we don't need the ā by analogy with the sententia case.

[seneca2008]

This might be overkill but I looked In Bradley's Arnold Latin Prose Composition:

Bradley's Arnold

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The footnote on the first page of the extract says " "Sententiam rogāre" is a technical expression: “to ask a senator for his opinion and vote.” The acc. sententiam is preserved in the passive Prīmus sententiam rogātus sum “I was asked my opinion first.” "
Given this I would be inclined to think that cōnsilium and sententia whilst clearly close in meaning are different in kind. I dont think its to do with what is inside someone's head, its just that "Sententiam rogāre" is a term of art.

[katalogon]

Thanks, Seneca.

If we look at the second part of the sentence:

quod tibi dare non possum

tibi dare implies "whence", from me to you, so this supports the ablative in the first part of the sentence.

I agree now that we can think of 3 and 8 in the same way.

[katalogon]

10. You and I will hide this from our friends.
Ego et tu hōc amīcōs cēlābimus.

Two macron fixes:

Ego et tū hoc amīcōs cēlābimus.

[seneca2008]

Thanks Katalogon!

I have a master document on my computer and I really should just update that and post only from that source. I have been a bit haphazard in making corrections. Thanks for spotting these errors and for your other contributions.

Thanks Michael for your helpful comments. I think I can offer some competition for the title of world's worst proof reader!

[mwh]

I was going to make the same point about sententiam rogare. I agree that for the purposes of the exercise we should treat 3 and 8 on a par. I don’t expect N&H were after anything other than double acc., but we should avoid bad Latin if we can.

One last word from me on all this, on 10: hoc is long even in nom.&acc. (reduced from hocce).

[katalogon]

One last word from me on all this, on 10: hoc is long even in nom.&acc. (reduced from hocce).

Right, it is pronounced as if hocc before an initial vowel, but shouldn't take a macron since the vowel is short.

[mwh]

Quite right. Sorry. I'm forever saying Don't confuse vowels with syllables.

[seneca2008]

Here is the next instalment. I would be grateful for corrections and suggestions.

11. He, having been made king, did not ask his people for advice.
Is, rēx crēatus est, populō suō cōnsilium nōn rogāvit.
(Is, rēx crēatus est, populum suum cōnsilium nōn rogāvit. Double accusative less idiomatic)

12. We were asked for the sword, which we had concealed from our father.
Gladium rogātī sumus, quem patrem nostrum cēlāverāmus.

13. I was asked by Caius for a sword?
Gladium ā Cāiō rogātus sum.

14. They were thought to be very wise.
Sapientissimōs esse putābantur

15. I hid from Caius the sword for which you asked me.
Gladium dē Cāiō cēlāvi, quem mē rogāvistī

16. Were you not taught Greek by your master?
Nōnne linguam Graecam tuō magistrō doctus es?

17. They became consuls, because they were thought to be wise.
Cōnsulēs factī sunt quia sapientēs putābantur.

18. Why did you hide this from Caius?
Cūr hoc dē Cāiō cēlāvistī?

19. You, who did this, were not elected consul by the citizens.
Tū, quī hoc fēcistī, cōnsulem nōn creābāris.

20. The man, whom you asked for advice, has taught me many things.
Vir, ā quō cōnsilium rogāvistī, mē dē multīs rēbus doctus est
( Vir, quem cōnsilium rogāvistī, mē multōs rēs doctus est double accusative less good see 11.)

[mwh]

11. creātus (short e, long a)
Del. est
Add ā before pop.
Del. suō
13. Why question mark?
14. Sapientissimī
15. If Gladium mē cēlāre in E5 and double acc. in 12 of this batch, then plain Cāium here.
ā mē
16. Add ā before tuō
18. See 15
19. cōnsul
20. docuit
multās rēs in both versions
mē better directly before the verb

[Herodotean]

19. You, who did this, were not elected consul by the citizens.
Tū, quī hoc fēcistī, cōnsulem nōn creābāris.

In addition to mwh's cōnsul, I would use the perfect: cōnsul nōn creātus es.

20. The man, whom you asked for advice, has taught me many things.
Vir, ā quō cōnsilium rogāvistī, mē dē multīs rēbus doctus est
( Vir, quem cōnsilium rogāvistī, mē multōs rēs doctus est double accusative less good see 11.)

Do you mean that the double accusative is less good for both rogō and doceō? It's perfectly fine for the latter.

[seneca2008]

Thank you both for your comments.

I agree, naturally, with everything you say and am grateful that you have corrected my solecisms. Some I can't believe I actually wrote (Sapientissimōs).

In "19. ( You, who did this, were not elected consul by the citizens.) Tū, quī hoc fēcistī, cōnsul nōn creābāris. "

I wonder, however, about Herodotean's "cōnsul nōn creātus es" instead of nōn creābāris. Is my imperfect actually wrong?

[Herodotean]

Compare the imperfect (https://latin.packhum.org/search?q=consul+%7E+creab) with the perfect (https://latin.packhum.org/search?q=%23c ... E+%23creat). Perhaps we're reading the English differently: I understood "you were not elected" as "you were not elected (in this particular instance)" not as "you consistently failed to be elected over the course of multiple elections." I think creabaris suggests the latter sense, but I'm happy to be shown examples I missed that would suggest otherwise.

[katalogon]

In 19, don't forget the ā cīvibus.

[seneca2008]

@katalogon thanks, well spotted.

@Herodotean Thanks for the reply. Without context it's often difficult to decide this kind of issue. I am happy to use the perfect and settle on the first meaning of "you were elected" which you propose.