Dear Friends,
Here is another scholium, on the same theme. I also think it confrms Michael's suggestion that πρεσβύτερον may only mean "more important," since here we have μείζονα, similarly imprecise (from what I gather). I was tempted to insert "actually" but I still don't understand how that works (presumably with αὐτὸν). So here it is:
Ἀχ 399. In this scholium, it is because Acheloios is the greatest of all rivers that it is labeled as “king” among them.
Scholia in Iliadem 21.194b2-a2.1-3 (ed. Erbse)= archetypes codicum BCE3, b2a2
τῶν ἄλλων πάντων ποταμῶν μείζονα εἶναι λέγουσιν
Ἀχελῷον· ὅθεν καὶ κρείοντα αὐτὸν πρὸς τοὺς ἄλλους λέγει. | ῥεῖ δὲ
δι’ Ἀκαρνανίας καὶ Δωδώνης
Molinari:
The others say that Achelous is the greatest of all rivers; whence he (Homer) calls him “king” over and above the others. It flows through Acarnania and Dodona.
Themata: Royal Epithet; Status
Question: Is "over and above" a good translation for πρὸς here, since it is paired with the accusative? Or should I just use "in relation to"?
With thanks,
Nick
Scholia in Iliadem 21.194b2-a2.1-3 (ed. Erbse)= archetypes codicum BCE3, b2a2
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Re: Scholia in Iliadem 21.194b2-a2.1-3 (ed. Erbse)= archetypes codicum BCE3, b2a2
τῶν ἄλλων is genitive, so it can't be the subject of λέγουσιν
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Re: Scholia in Iliadem 21.194b2-a2.1-3 (ed. Erbse)= archetypes codicum BCE3, b2a2
Yeah. τῶν ἄλλων goes with πάντων ποταμῶν. Also, μείζονα, not μέγιστον.
The πρὸς τοὺς ἄλλους answers "who is he king of"? I would just say "over the others", or "towards the others". "In relation to the others", would be crib-style translationese, imo.
Does κρείων have to be translated with a single word? It's not really "king" in English. "Master" is misleading in the other direction. If you were to double-translate it with "lord, master" or something similar, then at least the ball might be kept between twin gutters.
The πρὸς τοὺς ἄλλους answers "who is he king of"? I would just say "over the others", or "towards the others". "In relation to the others", would be crib-style translationese, imo.
Does κρείων have to be translated with a single word? It's not really "king" in English. "Master" is misleading in the other direction. If you were to double-translate it with "lord, master" or something similar, then at least the ball might be kept between twin gutters.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
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Re: Scholia in Iliadem 21.194b2-a2.1-3 (ed. Erbse)= archetypes codicum BCE3, b2a2
Thank you both.
I think I understand. So I should have:
"They say that of all the other rivers Achelous is great; whence he (Homer) calls him “lord" over the others. It flows through Acarnania and Dodona."
About κρείων, the word appears so often in the scholia and elsewhere that I would really prefer one word, but I understand your point. Perhaps using Lord but in the glossary offer an extended commentary on the term.
I think I understand. So I should have:
"They say that of all the other rivers Achelous is great; whence he (Homer) calls him “lord" over the others. It flows through Acarnania and Dodona."
About κρείων, the word appears so often in the scholia and elsewhere that I would really prefer one word, but I understand your point. Perhaps using Lord but in the glossary offer an extended commentary on the term.
Vivat Achelous!
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Re: Scholia in Iliadem 21.194b2-a2.1-3 (ed. Erbse)= archetypes codicum BCE3, b2a2
μείζονα is actually a comparative, so "greater". Greater than what? In Greek the genitive can be used to express this - so it's "greater than all the other rivers".
Almost all comparative adjectives in Greek end in τερος, τέρᾱ, τερον (masculine, feminine, neuter), but there are some that end in ων (genitive ονος). That's the case here with μείζονα, which is the accusative singular of μείζων, agreeing with Ἀχελῷον.
Almost all comparative adjectives in Greek end in τερος, τέρᾱ, τερον (masculine, feminine, neuter), but there are some that end in ων (genitive ονος). That's the case here with μείζονα, which is the accusative singular of μείζων, agreeing with Ἀχελῷον.
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Re: Scholia in Iliadem 21.194b2-a2.1-3 (ed. Erbse)= archetypes codicum BCE3, b2a2
Understood--thank you! This is very helpful
Vivat Achelous!
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Re: Scholia in Iliadem 21.194b2-a2.1-3 (ed. Erbse)= archetypes codicum BCE3, b2a2
A related one to try (now that you've got it) is ὁ γλυκύτατος τῶν ἁπάντων ποταμῶν, which I just ran into in the other thread.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com
Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com