A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

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Smyrnean
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A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by Smyrnean »

" καὶ πείσας ἐμὲ πιστὰ πάλιν ἔδωκάς μοι καὶ ἔλαβες παρʼ ἐμοῦ;"

The tranlsation given is, "And after you persuaded me, did you pledge me your faith and did you receive it from me?"
My translation would be "And after you persuaded me, did you give me your pledges and did you receive the very same from me?"

I think the given translation takes on the role of the interpreter a little bit. Am I wrong in translating it this way?

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by mwh »

I think the given translation is better and more accurate than yours. πιστά is the object of both ἔδωκας and ἔλαβες (and of course it’s plural) but there’s nothing corresponding to your “the very same” in the Greek.

And any translation inevitably “takes on the role of the interpreter.”

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jeidsath
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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by jeidsath »

[Phone-posting and written before reading Michael's post above.]

It may depend on what distinguishes a translator and an interpreter in your view. Many people, in this classics field, in this decade, seem to think it has something to do with producing the most effectual crib, their college experience mostly consisting of training themselves against such cribs for the period of a few years. But there might also be other definitions.

Neither translation here seems to express πάλιν.

I would say that pledges were taken and received, but that they were the "very same" from both parties may not be the intended message. In fact, I think that it is unlikely.

The Greek connects the participle more tightly to the finite verb than the merely temporal connection that the English of both translations gives. How to express this better? I dunno.

There's a sort of terseness to this questioning in the Greek. It's sharp and to the point, like a deposition. The lack of question signal words (which English doesn't possess), means that it comes across more like "And it is true that ...?" rather than "Did you...?" in the Greek.

IMO.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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MattK
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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by MattK »

Where does the given translation come from, Smyrnean? I ask because the intended audience is going to have a major impact on a translator's choices. If it's going to appear as an isolated sentence in a language textbook, for example, maybe it's important to keep the object plural so the reader will understand the form of πιστὰ. And what about πείσᾱς? Do you go with "having persuaded" to stress that it's a participle, or "after you persuaded" to show that Greek participles are often better translated in another way? It'll depend on what you're trying to achieve with the translation.

If it's a translation of the whole text, the priorities are going to be very different, but again it will depend on the audience. An edition aimed at university students is not going to be the same as one aimed at the general reader.

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by mwh »

Every decoding is another encoding. (Morris Zapp)

[I think Joel has a false notion of the college experience in the Classics field. College students learn to read Greek, among other things, without cribs. I really can’t think Joel has had much recent college experience of Classics.]

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by seneca2008 »

Every decoding is another encoding. (Morris Zapp)
Can I check that I have understood your words by saying it back in my own words, that is, different words from the ones you used, for if I repeat your own words exactly you will doubt whether I have really understood you. etc
Persuade tibi hoc sic esse, ut scribo: quaedam tempora eripiuntur nobis, quaedam subducuntur, quaedam effluunt. Turpissima tamen est iactura, quae per neglegentiam fit. Et si volueris attendere, maxima pars vitae elabitur male agentibus, magna nihil agentibus, tota vita aliud agentibus.

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by mwh »

Yes, but MIND THE GAP.
etc

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Constantinus Philo
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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by Constantinus Philo »

by the way, why the order is illogical? should it not be you took then you gave back?
Semper Fidelis

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by mwh »

It’s not illogical, it precisely follows the order of events. The sentence runs
οὐκοῦν, ἔφη ὁ Κῦρος,
ὁπότ᾽ αὖ ἔγνως τὴν σαυτοῦ δύναμιν,
ἐλθὼν ἐπὶ τὸν τῆς Ἀρτέμιδος βωμὸν
μεταμέλειν τέ σοι ἔφησθα
και πείσας ἐμὲ
πιστὰ πάλιν ἔδωκάς μοι καὶ ἔλαβες παρ᾽ ἐμοῦ;

“and … did you again give me pledges and receive them from me?”

Could not be clearer.

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by jeidsath »

Cyrus had all of the power in the situation, Orestes was begging for his life at the altar of Artemis. So Cyrus is first given pledges by Orestes, and then Orestes takes them from Cyrus in turn. Both sets of πιστά would mainly consist of promises not to harm the other, I guess. Maybe possibly oaths of obedience and protection as well? There are other examples of these pledgings in Anabasis.

The τε and και highlighted by Michael are fully independent of the order of the ἔδωκάς and ἔλαβες.

As far Michael's outburst-of-the-day about my "false experience"...well, if he can point to classics college curriculums where students don't make frequent recourse to Perseus-style tools and Loeb translations, I'd like to hear about them.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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MattK
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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by MattK »

The University of Queensland's website gives quite a lot of info about its curriculum:

https://my.uq.edu.au/programs-courses/r ... C2000/2023

No mention of using Perseus or translations there as far as I can see. It's very similar in outline to what I did 15 years ago - a couple of years of a textbook (Athenaze in my case, Reading Greek here) then onto small group reading, translation and discussion of authentic texts - teacher's choice at Queensland, but we did a few sections from Russell's prose anthology, Bel and the Dragon from the Septuagint and then each of the students got to choose something from which we studied an extract (I remember doing Lysias 12, the beginning of Daphnis and Chloe, a bit of Procopius because there was a Byzantinist in the group, something from Plato and the Odyssey...).

Of course, there's nothing to stop students using Perseus and the Loeb to prepare, but the teacher can always spring a couple of surprises in class to keep students on their toes.

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by Smyrnean »

MattK wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 9:31 pm Where does the given translation come from, Smyrnean?
It comes from Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek.
jeidsath wrote: Sun May 28, 2023 8:45 pm
There's a sort of terseness to this questioning in the Greek. It's sharp and to the point, like a deposition. The lack of question signal words (which English doesn't possess), means that it comes across more like "And it is true that ...?" rather than "Did you...?" in the Greek.

IMO.
In which case,how about this:

"And after you persuaded me, isn't it true that you gave me your pledges and received them from me?"

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by jeidsath »

MattK wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 8:48 am The University of Queensland's website gives quite a lot of info about its curriculum
I'm afraid that I don't see anything special from that description. But if it's your experience that they are producing students that aren't chained to frequent recourse to aids for general reading, then more power to them, for sure.
Smyrnean wrote:"And after you persuaded me, isn't it true that you gave me your pledges and received them from me?"
If you were translating the entire scene, and trying to build up the deposition image in the reader's mind, the "isn't it true" would be effective, right? Here, as an unconnected sentence in a grammar, my first thought is following (though I'm no grammar writer, and not much of a grammar reader either):

καὶ πείσας ἐμὲ πιστὰ πάλιν ἔδωκάς μοι καὶ ἔλαβες παρʼ ἐμοῦ;
And once you convinced me, you again gave me pledges and got pledges from me?

Here, I've tightened the participle connection with "and once" rather than looser "and after". I removed "did you" entirely and just rely on the question mark to signal the question. I've repeated pledges. I think your "them" is the other option, but the sense in the Greek isn't the same pledges being returned, but a neuter group of pledges being given and gotten. Compare: ἐδώκαμεν καὶ ἐλάβομεν πιστά
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by mwh »

Just one tiny correction (Joel can call it my outburst-of-the-day): Orontas, not Orestes!

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by jeidsath »

Hardly an outburst, and appreciated. That's what I get for phone-posting.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by MattK »

jeidsath wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 1:08 pm
I'm afraid that I don't see anything special from that description. But if it's your experience that they are producing students that aren't chained to frequent recourse to aids for general reading, then more power to them, for sure.
I don't think there's anything special about it either - it was just the first course I found online that had details about the curriculum, and it doesn't seem to rely on cribs, Loebs or Perseus-type tools.

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by jeidsath »

I can't tell what you're trying to say. Are translation and Perseus use, and aid use generally, rampant there or not? I have communicated what I know as an outsider who does (though Michael disputes) have a tiny bit of contact with college students and professors, current and former.

But I'm not either student or teacher. I know only what I'm told and what I see. I'm quite willing to believe you that Queensland is quite different from what I've heard about schools elsewhere, and I would love to know how they do it. How much translation and Perseus use is there at Queensland, from your experience? Are they really an exception from what I've heard about schools in US/UK/Germany? The website you link isn't going to tell us, I don't think, any more than it tells about their plagiarism rate.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by MattK »

Smyrnean wrote: Mon May 29, 2023 12:53 pm
It comes from Cambridge Grammar of Classical Greek.
OK, thanks.... So it's actually the difference between the accented and unaccented pronouns that they are interested in. πάλιν isn't translated because they omit it from the Greek. From the isolated extract it isn't obvious that the speaker already knows the answer, so there's no need to worry about the form of the question.

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by MattK »

Joel, I don't know how "rampant" anything is there, as I've never been to the place. I am just offering it as an example of a curriculum which does not use or favour the use of cribs, translations or Perseus. The method (similar to my experience in a different university years earlier) allows for preparation but is based on small group discussion and translation in the presence of an expert - cribs and Perseus won't get you very far in that environment, in my experience.

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Re: A question on the translation of Xen. An. 1.6.7

Post by jeidsath »

First, curriculum as in "totality of student experience", not "course description published on the website."

Now, if the people you have experience with are not big Perseus and Loeb users, then that is amazing to hear. Myself, I know only a very few people who I could describe this way. It's great to have you as an ally here against the Loebers, and to know that there are more like us.
“One might get one’s Greek from the very lips of Homer and Plato." "In which case they would certainly plough you for the Little-go. The German scholars have improved Greek so much.”

Joel Eidsath -- jeidsath@gmail.com

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